PACIFIC COAST COLLXN- THE LAST GREAT SILVER AGE PEDIGREE??

[drdonaldblake]

The PC's , circa, 1998/99 are the last true silver age pedigree discovered in the last 6 to 7 years ( i am NOT going to include Oakland books as i do not believe they constitute a pedigree).

 

from 1989 to 1999 we had winnipeg, northland, bostons, golden state and Mass pedigrees but from 1999 to 2005 weve had ??

 

With CGC and the internet i would have thought at least another collexn of the same quality may have been found but one has not come to light

 

do u ppl think we may have seen the last great silver age pedigree??

[Red Hook]

 

do u ppl think we may have seen the last great silver age pedigree??

 

What the hell is going on here?

 

R u 2 lay-z 2 rite it awl owwwwwt?

[rob_react]

 

do u ppl think we may have seen the last great silver age pedigree??

 

No. No. A thousand times no.

 

There are still new GOLDEN AGE collections surfacing. If those are still out there, there have to be some pretty nice undiscovered OO Silver Age collections waiting to be found.

 

My only concern is- will there be any Daredevils or DCs

[drdonaldblake]

in terms of golden age there was the lost valley books and david alexanders find in 2003/2004.

but where are the OO silver collexns?

 

are the owners just keeping them? opinions??

[namisgr]

OO high grade silver age collections may still be out there, but I bet there aren't many of them, based on their conspicuous absence since the PC collection was first brought to market in May of '99.

 

The vast majority of outstanding silver age collections that dealers are finding lately, from my discussions with them, are "secondary owner" ones. By the late sixties and early seventies, there were dealers with a stock of back issues, and comic cons, flea markets, and mail order to acquire them. I've also been seeing vast high grade silver collections that are original owner books from '63-'65 onward, with the owners' having acquired earlier issues to complete their runs second-hand. Finally, high grade runs amassed by long-time dealers are another example of outstanding "secondary owner" collections.

[Mushroom]

I hope if there are other great OO collections that they stay hidden after what has been done to the Pac Coast pedigree.

 

With CGC grading won't it be harder to get recognition?

 

When was the cleveland collection discovered? I have a few of those and they are stunning, yet obviously not good enough for a pedigree?

[namisgr]

I hope if there are other great OO collections that they stay hidden after what has been done to the Pac Coast pedigree.

 

When was the cleveland collection discovered? I have a few of those and they are stunning, yet obviously not good enough for a pedigree?

 

Shroom, what has been "done" to the PC pedigree that makes you wish it had stayed hidden?

 

The story I've heard about the Cleveland collection is that a number of the earliest Silver Age books were acquired second-hand. Beautiful OO books from at least as far back as '64.

[Mushroom]

I hope if there are other great OO collections that they stay hidden after what has been done to the Pac Coast pedigree.

 

When was the cleveland collection discovered? I have a few of those and they are stunning, yet obviously not good enough for a pedigree?

 

Shroom, what has been "done" to the PC pedigree that makes you wish it had stayed hidden?

 

The story I've heard about the Cleveland collection is that a number of the earliest Silver Age books were acquired second-hand. Beautiful OO books from at least as far back as '64.

 

If I said then I would have to shoot myself. It is a forbidden subject.

[lou_fine]

When was the cleveland collection discovered? I have a few of those and they are stunning, yet obviously not good enough for a pedigree?

 

 

The story I've heard about the Cleveland collection is that a number of the earliest Silver Age books were acquired second-hand. Beautiful OO books from at least as far back as '64.

 

 

Don't see why this would make a big difference here.

 

You have to remember that most of the earlier Church GA books prior to the 1938/39 time period were also all second-hand books.

[jbud73]

When was the cleveland collection discovered? I have a few of those and they are stunning, yet obviously not good enough for a pedigree?

 

 

The story I've heard about the Cleveland collection is that a number of the earliest Silver Age books were acquired second-hand. Beautiful OO books from at least as far back as '64.

 

 

Don't see why this would make a big difference here.

 

You have to remember that most of the earlier Church GA books prior to the 1938/39 time period were also all second-hand books.

 

Thats an excellent point. Oh spill it already, I have rarely heard anything on this board that someone else didnt know already, or multiple people.

[Mushroom]

You are missing the point. If I mention the dreaded word then another thread is destroyed and I am sent to the hall of shame for life. Just look at it this way, a lot of pac's that were slabbed in the very early days of CGC now sport shiny brand new labels and they seem to have improved as well.

[tth2]

You are missing the point. If I mention the dreaded word then another thread is destroyed and I am sent to the hall of shame for life. Just look at it this way, a lot of pac's that were slabbed in the very early days of CGC now sport shiny brand new labels and they seem to have improved as well.

Have there really been that many resub upgrades of the PC books? We all know of the 9.6 PC X-Men 1 which is now a 9.8. What are some others?

 

And since Doug seems to be the main guy who has been doing the resubbing and getting higher grades, are you saying he's getting the upgrades through pressing? Robert Roter owns many of the other slabbed PCs, but as far as I can tell most of his still bear the old CGC label, so he's not the one doing any resubbing as far as I can tell.

[Mushroom]

I am not saying anything......SFILOSA and Doug himself have stated on these boards that the only pac's to receive upgrades were those that Doug could see were undergraded by CGC. If I led anybody else to believe that there was anything else to this then I sincerely apologise. Far be it for me to cast any aspersions against these books.

[tth2]

I am not saying anything......SFILOSA and Doug himself have stated on these boards that the only pac's to receive upgrades were those that Doug could see were undergraded by CGC. If I led anybody else to believe that there was anything else to this then I sincerely apologise. Far be it for me to cast any aspersions against these books.

Hey Mushroom, I wasn't trying to beat you down. Just trying to see if your cryptic statements were based on facts that we should all be aware of. Pedigrees and books with telltale marks are usually the easiest books for determining if pressing has occurred, so I was just curious.

[drdonaldblake]

mushroom

can u pls elaborate on "what was done" to the PC's or what did u actually mean by your post?

 

i know quite a few PC's have been resubbd and got higher grades, alot of books from other pedigrees have eben resubbd and got higher grades eg the boston ff 50 9.6 went to 9.8

[rob_react]

And with this thread I'm finished with comics general.

[jbud73]

Well Rob I'm sorry to hear that, a bit DQ dramatic though never thought that to be your style.

 

With the Pac books yes it is common knowlegde that a lot of them have been resubbed to achieve higher grades, this was a hot topic after the X-Men #1 incident.

 

And yes I agree that pressing is most trackable with Pedigrees - For those that don't know, the Jason Ewert auction of the Daredevil "Green River" #11 was one of the prime catalysts for this entire discussion and subsequent outing to a larger section of the collector base.

 

Arty's sig line follows the Church books that have increased in grade - and I know that Redhook's tracking of the Green River's is devoted partly to doing the same thing.

 

Of course the question will always remain - was it incompetance by CGC or NDP that resulted in the variation in grading. For my part I will state two things.

 

1. I have a personal list of dealers that I feel press books and Doung is NOT on that list.

 

2. In the comic marketplace today there are 2 things you can be assured of: A) grading is still NOT an exact science, CGC may have tightened it up a but, but they still have a high enough degree of inconsistency. B) No books are immune to NDP, Pedigree or otherwise.

[Mushroom]

And with this thread I'm finished with comics general.

 

Rob.....I am truly sorry. Sometimes I just can't keep my sarcasm to myself. I knew when I typed it that it would just be irritating.

[tth2]

Okay, before we got needlessly sidetracked, to answer Ben's original question regarding whether any more SA pedigrees will emerge. In my opinion, I don't think many, if any, will, for several reasons:

 

1. OOs are much better able to sell their books directly now, for the reasons I'll list below, and therefore don't require a dealer to help bring the books to market. Without a "discovering dealer", there is less chance that the collection will be branded as a pedigree. So some pedigree-quality collections may have in fact surfaced in recent years, but were not marketed as such. The reason it's easier for OOs to sell directly now:

 

a. OOs are more sophisticated now and thanks to the Internet have lots of ways to do some research before selling their books. No more rubes like the Church heirs.

 

b. Third-party grading service: OOs can submit their books for slabbing, lessening doubts about "some unknown seller" to grade (i.e., "the books can't be as great as he's claiming them to be!"). For those who remember, even when a well-known dealer such as Robert Roter brought the PC collection out, there was a bit of hesitation at first because no one could believe the books were really as nice as he was claiming. It was really only after a few well-known collectors took the gamble of flying out and checking it out, and word got out, that the feeding frenzy commenced.

 

c. eBay and consignment sites such as Heritage: OOs have so many ways to bring their books to market now without relying on a dealer. In fact, the rumor is that the PC OO originally sold a few of his books on eBay, which is how Roter discovered the collection. But eBay was still in its infancy, at least for comics, and there was no 3rd-party grading service, so it's not surprising that the OO was willing to use a dealer. He might not have today.

 

2. CGC have tightened up the pedigree-granting standard (but won't tell us what they are). My guess is they've REALLY tightened up for SA pedigrees, and collections like Oakland, Winnipeg and Boston, where the bulk of the primo books are post-1965, would not get a designation today. I don't think it's coincidence that the only pedigrees to surface in the post-CGC era have been GA pedigrees.

 

3. Just plain fewer pedigree-quality OO collections out there. This sort of ties into the stricter CGC standards. There are undoubtedly many raw HG collections still out there, but how many were predominantly purchased from the newsstand and remain "pure"?

[namisgr]

Just to (hopefully) further put to rest the pressing issue with the PC pedigree: I own about 20 books from the collection, 13 of which were bought in raw form directly from Roter. They are structurally phenomenal, and are all flat as can be. They were stored with absolutely obsessive care in large stacks by the original owner. The lower grades from the collection that I own come from defects like pre-Marvel chipping (taking an otherwise NM copy down to 7.0 without any pieces actually missing, if you can believe that), and the rare small scuff mark on the spine. Neither pressing nor cleaning would do diddly-squat to improve the encapsulation grades of these books.

 

BTW, although it is not recognized by CGC as a pedigree, our own Burntboy has a pedigree-worthy OO collection that he brought to the light of the collecting community just a couple of years ago. There probably aren't many more undiscovered ones like it, but I'll bet there are a few. So keep digging, all you hotshot dealers and collectors!