POLL: When did the Bronze Age begin?

[drbanner]

 

 

[Zonker]

1970... and Detective 395, January 1970 , first O'Neil/Adams Batman.

 

Sorry J.C. I hadda throw that one in one more time.

Z.

[supapimp]

are we gonna have a poll every year? or half year? what does the original poll say? cos we all know that DC calls GL/GA 76 a silver age classic.

[drbanner]

what does the original poll say?

 

That's the crazy thing...I don't think we've ever had a poll like this, although there were some polls embedded (yep, I've been watching too much war coverage) in the original thread! I believe the previous polls focused on specific books, which no one could really agree on (although I was converted from GL/GA 76 to Conan 1), so I figured a timeframe was a good indicator.

[supapimp]

here's a POLL courtsey of silverandbronze

[Zonker]

And another previous poll.

 

...but I fully support what Doc Banner's doing here, since the current poll/thread brings a clarity & focus to this that previous attempts have lacked.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[ubiquiti]

I guess Conan 1 wins...

[joe_collector]

Well duh!

[ubiquiti]

I love pointing out the obvious!

[Aman619]

I always referred to all 70s books as the Bronze age. But there was a very persuasive piece in CBG that took a longer perspective on the situation. It took notice of the past 20 years into the equation, so that this new long view of comics history encompassed all 60 years of comics publication.

 

Golden Age: we know, Action#1

Silver Age: Showcase 4 Detective 225 FF#1, take your pick. The important thing is it was 20-25 years after Action#1 ... and in that span the industry had risen...then fallen, nearly collapsing completely.

 

The article then pointed to Giant Size X-Men as the start of Bronze...AND...what was most eye-opening to me, the reason had more to do with how It fit into the cycles of comics history than the originality of the character or whether it was an instant hit book.

 

It followed the second deep disaster in comics sales, when newstands were uninterested in selling cheap magazine for little profit. As well as 6 years of the constant search for the genre that would replace the Silver age super-hero sellers that just werent cutting it anymore: monsters, barbarians, horror etc. And this descent into horror, monsters etc paralelled the end stages of the Golden Age. In the years after GSXMen, super-heroes started selling again, starting the third dynasty of comics. It coincided with Direct sales beginning which doesnt hurt either. ALso, the "Golden Age begins easily, but ended messily and confusingly. The first super-hero phenomenon died out shortly after WWII. That means that the Golden Age limped on for longer than the few short years of excitement that spawned it....just like this interpretation of the Silver Age ending in 1975, noy 1969.

 

In ten years or so, we'll be picking a date for the start of modern comics. They already have a contender: Smith's DD#1 (Marvel Knights). To me the thing to keep in mind in picking these latter ages is to pull back from the dates and book swe have annointed for 20 years. A lot more time has passed and put it in greater perspective.

 

And, this way there are still only three major eras in comics. If 1970 was the bronze age, you must allow that there have been two more ages since...

 

Anyone else read this article?

 

 

 

[blowout]

Anyone else read this article?

 

Are you talking about the one by Mr. Silverage?

If so that article has been discused at length on the boards.

I must say personally that I can't see any compeling reasons to start the bronze age with GS X-Men #1.

[Aman619]

I was afriad I was too late to the party on this...didnrt see the discussion except what SilverAge printed in CBG. You're a smart guy--Ive read what youve had to say here.....arent you the LEAST bit convinced??

 

I like the simplicity and synchronicity (?) of the idea.

But I gotta admit, even if I go along with it, I'll still probably refer to GHOSTS, TOMB DRACULA etc as Bronze---Oh well, these Ages are just unofficial labels anyway...we all know what periods these books come from.

[blowout]

still probably refer to GHOSTS, TOMB DRACULA etc as Bronze---

 

This is the real clincher. Starting the Bronze age with GS X-Men #1 just cuts out too many characters that define the Bronze age for most people. The harder edged characters that were a real departure from the Silver Age like Conan, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Dracula, Werewolf By Night etc.

[joe_collector]

aman, using GS X-Men 1 as the starting point for the Bronze Age is just as you said, an easy way to slot that book in due to its influence on the Modern market, especially by those who were not buying comics from 1970-79 and have no idea on what was popular, what trends emerged or really anything at all to do with Bronze comics.

 

It's all based on "looking back" without any firm roots in that period, and therefore incorrect assumptions are made and erroneous conclusions found. Revisionist history at its best, and using the Modern X-Mania and transferring it to the past.

 

You also state that X-Men helped revitalize the market after 1975 and during the 1977 migration to comic books? Huh? Check your sales figures again, and see how many Spider-man comics were sold at that point in time.

 

Not even close, and moving by the horrible selling 1975-76 X-Men years (the title wasn't even monthly until #112), even during the late-70's, Spidey was out-selling X-men by a 3-1 ratio. That pretty well puts the last nail in that insipid argument.

 

Reasons why GS X-Men may be considered the start of the Bronze Age:

 

1) Led to tons of new characters, concepts and books? NO

 

2) Was the Best-Selling comic in any year in the 1970's? NO

 

3) Had the Best-Selling Character(s)? NO

 

4) Had the greatest number of titles? NO

 

Now when you move to the 1990's, all those questions become YES, which is why the chuckle-heads mistakenly think it was like this from Day 1.

[joe_collector]

Another easy way to understand this is by the following statement:

 

Bronze Age X-Men is the same as Silver Age Spider-man.

 

Spider-man followed the big DC Silver Age wave and fell in the middle of Marvel's Silver rush, and Fantastic Four was the big early-Silver title in terms of sales. We know this because Overstreet and others have banged it into our heads, but using the Mr. Silverage logic, AF 15 would be the start of the Silver Age.

 

In the late-60's Amazing Spider-man turned into Marvel's best-selling title, it launched a magazine title in the 60's, cartoons, and several spin-offs books in the 70's and 80's, and was basically the most popular Marvel character.

 

But it didn't start anything, didn't signify a real shift in the comic's world, and would never have been tried without other innovative launches paving the way.

 

Spider-man was just a really great idea that later translated into hot-selling comics, a super-popular character, and lotsa cash for Marvel. Exactly the same as the New X-Men, which jumped in mid-point, and only much later became a huge-seller and launched a ton of spin-offs.

 

Most important Silver Age book? Maybe. The start of an Age? Nope. Same for New X-Men, and the similarities are quite striking.

[Aman619]

Like I said, the key to accepting GSXMen is stepping back away from what we have called the Bronze age and look at ALL 60 years. To me, back then we only cynically called it the Bronze Age. In the 70s, we considered these comics (as all current comics are compared to the vaunted past) crappy and worthless compared to the already valuable Silver Age... and the ancient Golden Age that started it all. 'Bronze' being a CHEAP metal compared to Silver and Gold which are traditional names for days gone by. (Actually, only Gold is used this way, it was comics collectors who coined Silver, right? maybe due to the Silver Anniversary Superman Annual #? ?) I cant remember.

 

The name stuck when referring to those books, and, only now in what, the last ten years have they been seen as having had quite a lot of gems. And, these Bronze books are now as old in 2003 as Action #1 was when Spidey was born which adds to the cache and ups the prices.

 

So what I am saying clumsily is that the name Bronze Age has stuck, probably for good and I realize this is a problem, but, the argument is that what SEEMED like a NEW AGE in 1970 was in reality, in the 60-year perspective we have now, just the 4-6 year dying gasps of the Silver Age, and its death throes parallelled closely the end of the Golden Age itself.

 

Why isnt the EC/Horror Age its own Age? Those books have nothing to do with the Super-heroes that spawned the Golden Age. Part of why I like this approach is that without it, we will have an unlimited series of ages...What's after Bronze? Modern, right? But from when to when? Or is it the Crisis Age? And arent we in yet a NEW Modern Age now as there is rebirth after the 90s near death experiences? And, really, Modern is no name for an Age since ALL current books are part of the 'Modern' Age.

 

Heres the sum-up: It is readily apparent only NOW after three successive 20-year cycles that comics history falls into a decade up/decade down symmetrical pattern, which should be simply Gold/Silver/"Bronze".

 

As for your list of things GSXMen was NOT, give the same test to Showcase #4 and Tec# 225 and they fail miserably too ( Im assuming you consider one of them to be the start...maybe not). Also, in ten more years it may not be GSXMen anymore either. Martian Manhunter was seriously considered the Herald of Silver for a long time. BTW--GSXMen is not a book I bought or even have read (or the XMen) so I have no axe to grind here. It was just a surprisingly convincing argument...to me anyway

[joe_collector]

Then you my good sir, are too easily swayed by the words of a lunatic.

 

You do realize that many on here have propositioned that Mr. SilverAge may actually have alterior motives, such as getting a ton of hyper-valuable and popular books (Hulk 181, ASM 121, 122 & 129, TOD 1, MS 2 & 5, Iron Man 55, Conan 1, etc.) declared as Silver Age books?

 

'Nuff said.

[joe_collector]

>>Martian Manhunter was seriously considered the Herald of Silver for a long time.

 

You're making my head ache!

 

You do realize this is just semantics, and concerns two key issues that are separated by LESS THAN A YEAR?

 

Now back to the flawed logic of GS X-Men, which predates the overwhelming majority choice of Conan #1 by FIVE YEARS. Yes FIVE YEARS.

[Aman619]

This is in reply to your second letter which I hadnt read yet.....

 

The big difference between choosing a Silver Age beginning and The Bronze/Modern Age is that it was simpler then. I mean, Comics were new in 1938. A new medium and a media phenomenon. Then the super-heroes that caused the excitement died out. Comics staggered on for a decade. All but a handful of heroes were never heard from again! Until, ---super-heroes were re-invented and the medium and industry took off again in what we call the Silver Age! And "fandom" assembled itself spontaneously (and became creators and letter-column collaborators with them--unheard of!) and dubbed the JLA etc a "rebirth" of the long lost Golden age, hence the Silver Age.

 

The difference is that since then, nearly all of the heroes created in the 60s. have been continuously published and their values as licensing nurtured by DC and Marvel. Even in the "Bronze age," though they were minimized by other genres, these thousands of marginal and cancelled characters still kept up in guest appearances in their "universes". And even in the mid- seventies 'Cancelled Comics' period, the Universes were still alive and kicking, even if many heroes couldnt carry their own titles anymore.

 

So, you could say that we have only two Ages and we're still in the Silver Age cause in spirit it never ended, but we know better. At some point things were different again and deserved a new name. I assume from this post that you and I agree on Showcase#4 for Silver. (For a moment I thought you might be leaning to AF15 but this post was clear on that!)

 

So I think we differ in the length of Bronze. I assume you give it from something like 1970 to 1974 plus-and/or-minus," followed by Modern at some event. I think simplifying all of it into 3 ages for now make sense. So what DO you call all comics periods after Silver?

[joe_collector]

>>So, you could say that we have only two Ages and we're still in the Silver Age cause in spirit it never ended

 

I can actually agree with that, since with the loss of the younger reader, all that we are seeing is Silver Age comics and concepts retreaded.

 

But if we are to accept a Bronze Age, then retroactively deleting 5 years of history and far more new comics and characters than Marvel introduced in the Silver Age is like calling Mario Lemieux the best player of the 1980's, since he is today and handily forgetting about Gretzky.

 

Between 1970 and GS X-Men #1, Marvel started on an unprecedented flood of new ideas and characters. Things that would never have been done before, like a guy with claws who killed, a psycho with a high-powered rifle kacking villains with abandon, major character deaths, Devil-spawned heroes, villains gleefully killing heroes and bystanders with abandon, heroes that rode the line between good guy and bad, etc.

 

That's what the Bronze Age means to me, and I don't intend to just wipe out a full decade of new and decidedly different comics just for the sake of revisionist history. It happened, it changed comics forever, and many of the Conan-induced 1970-75 amoral characters remain extremely popular today.

 

The launch of the X-Men had absolutely nothing to do with the debuts of the popular characters that came before, so I have no idea why anyone would see it as the start of that age. If post-GS X-Men books like Devil Dinosaur, Ms. Marvel, Nova and Rom are your idea of the key Bronze Age comics, then you're alone in that regard.