Ditko's estate... 6 6

[fastballspecial]

12 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

20 hours ago, fastballspecial said:

That's stretching it a bit. There are storylines in there that are still voted some of the best of all time. Dark Phoenix and Days of the Future Past. Some of the art will be
fantastic with Byrne early stuff. Cockrum not so much, but still well worth reading. If anything it will make you appreciate the comic medium much more.

 

I honestly hear modern readers tell me all the time that they try and read that early comic stuff, including the Claremont X-Men and they just can't get into it. When I ask, "Is it the art?" "Is it the stories?" They generally say the same thing - "It's hard to read."

I get that. If you didn't grow up reading Marvel Comics, coming into it new, it probably seems... weird. 

It's a shame, because, yes - some good stories from that period - some great Cockrum art, some great Bryne art (enhanced by the inks of Terry Austin), so... I don't know - that's been my experience with it.

I have the same problem with comics from the 60s I think the art is pretty bad and the stories while legendary for me many times seem slow and undramatic. 

It doesn't mean they are bad it just means I can't relate to them like I can book from the late 70s and 80s from multiple companies and creators.(Which built on those stories)Modern readers probably have the same viewpoint. The difference for me is I only read about 3-5 titles a month anymore because I think they are really terrible compared towhat I grew up on and if I am paying $3-5 a book I better say wow when I read it.

And yes I will give you Claremont did leave a lot of dangling plot threads many more when he got into the 160s up to the Siege Perilous stuff.

 

[Prince Namor]

38 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

No one is denying Kirby's enormous role in the creation of the Marvel Universe and even though you will spout " Kirby doesn't deserve all the credit", from our previous conversations I don't believe you really believe that.

I've said endlessly, my position is this: Without Stan Lee the Marvel Universe would never have come close to being noticed or acheiving the level of success it did. But without Kirby, it wouldn't have existed at all. I have no problem giving Lee his due, he was amazing at what he did.

As to if you believe me or not, I find that to be inconsequential.

Quote

As far as the creation of Spider-Man goes, any rational person understands that Kirby had nothing to do with the version that became Marvel's flagship. No one here is disputing this, the point was is that Kirby believed it as he believed he created it all by the end of his life.

No one is disputing that.

Quote

If you want to get technical, there wouldn't be a Marvel Universe if Martin Goodman hadn't instructed Stan Lee to come up with something like the Justice League. The original plot to FF #1 written by Lee was discovered by a Marvel staffer who inherited Stan Lee's old desk, unless you'd like to call Roger Stern a liar as well?

There's plenty to read on that from various parties as well. 

Quote

Kirby did create the Fourth World and while I enjoy those books, they were not exactly setting the world on fire sales wise...unless you want to call Carmine Infantino a liar as well?

According to Paul Levitz in his research for the 75 Years of DC Comics HC, he went through the old sales numbers and what he said is that the Fourth World books numbers were middle of the pack... that books that were selling less than it weren't cancelled, while Kirby's were. Are you calling him a liar?

Edited September 2, 2018 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

33 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I have nothing but respect for Ditko, but nothing he created without Lee has had the lasting impact of The Amazing Spider-Man or Doctor Strange. Why didn't the Blue Beetle, The Creeper or The Question have nearly the impact or popularity? What was missing 

Fixed that for you. Stan Lee didn't really create Doctor Strange. He said so himself. Or are you calling Stan a liar as well?

[Logan510]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yawn. You're trolling is neither interesting, creative or even... enough to be annoyed by. It's just bland.

For someone who has asked me NOT to communicate with you, you certainly go far and out of your way to comment on my posts and make your snidely little remarks.

Then again for someone who so greatly praised RMA’s abilities on this very forum (https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/196556-im-afraid-to-post-an-rma-feedback-thread/?page=2), only to turn around a year later and try and claim he ripped you off, I guess that type of bizarre behavior is expected of you.

And I don’t need any proof from Mark Evanier to show my work. There’s plenty of information out there on it, including Stan’s own words. There are people who’ve made the research on it their life’s work.

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_Lee-Kirby.html

http://hilobrow.com/2011/06/27/btoom-kirby-vs-lee-intro/

https://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/2011/06/

And of course the one place you CAN find critical analysis of comic art:

http://www.tcj.com/a-96th-birthday/

Nice try though. Remember - if you’re not making a point toward the conversation - you’re just being rude. And if you’re just here to troll… well you’re just here to troll so, I guess there’s really no lesson there.

You might as well trot out issues of the Kirby Collector as your ( not you're ) indisputable proof. You can call me challenging you, "trolling" all you want, but it doesn't make it fact.

Funny how you never mentioned my "bizarre behavior" when we spoke in person or on the phone. It's interesting how different people can act when they're behind the keyboard 

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

Fixed that for you. Stan Lee didn't really create Doctor Strange. He said so himself. Or are you calling Stan a liar as well?

I'm sure Doctor Strange would've been just as popular without Stan Lee's contributions, just like the The Blue Beetle, The Creeper etc.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

You might as well trot out issues of the Kirby Collector as your ( not you're ) indisputable proof. You can call me challenging you, "trolling" all you want, but it doesn't make it fact.

Funny how you never mentioned my "bizarre behavior" when we spoke in person or on the phone. It's interesting how different people can act when they're behind the keyboard 

Anything I say here, I'll just as much say to your face. I'm just as outspoken in person as I am here.

[Logan510]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

I've said endlessly, my position is this: Without Stan Lee the Marvel Universe would never have come close to being noticed or acheiving the level of success it did. But without Kirby, it wouldn't have existed at all. I have no problem giving Lee his due, he was amazing at what he did.

No one is disputing that.

There's plenty to read on that from various parties as well. 

According to Paul Levitz in his research for the 75 Years of DC Comics HC, he went through the old sales numbers and what he said is that the Fourth World books numbers were middle of the pack... that books that were selling less than it weren't cancelled, while Kirby's were. Are you calling him a liar?

I've heard you utter this backhanded compliment in person several times. It's much easier to tell how insincere it really is when someone hears you say it aloud as opposed to text.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

I'm sure Doctor Strange would've been just as popular without Stan Lee's contributions, just like the The Blue Beetle, The Creeper etc.

No, I don't believe it would have. Stan's contribution to things is his ability to promote. Aren't you following along?

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, Chuck Gower said:

Anything I say here, I'll just as much say to your face. I'm just as outspoken in person as I am here.

I call BS. You're much more polite and even keeled in person.

[Logan510]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

No, I don't believe it would have. Stan's contribution to things is his ability to promote. Aren't you following along?

This is why no one believes you when you kind of, sort of give Stan Lee some credit for his contributions.

[Prince Namor]

Just now, Logan510 said:

I've heard you utter this backhanded compliment in person several times. It's much easier to tell how insincere it really is when someone hears you say it aloud as opposed to text.

It's not a back handed compliment. His contribution - which INCLUDES story ideas and even rejected story ideas, which I consider contributions too - is what MADE Marvel succeed on a level that NO comic book company would have ever been able to do. Yeah, he did it off of Kirby and Ditko's back, but he got them to work, got the best out of them he could, gave them ideas or pissed them off or whatever and it led to what it became. Without Lee it NEVER could've happened. 

I don't know what more you or your sock puppet conversationalist friends need to hear. 

[Prince Namor]

3 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

I call BS. You're much more polite and even keeled in person.

I'm polite and even keeled on here until someone starts trolling me or passing off BS as truth. Ask me in person if Kathleen Kennedy is getting fired from Disney, i guaran-freakin-tee you I'll go off on a rant.

[Logan510]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

I'm polite and even keeled on here until someone starts trolling me or passing off BS as truth. Ask me in person if Kathleen Kennedy is getting fired from Disney, i guaran-freakin-tee you I'll go off on a rant.

Again, I call BS. We've talked several times, broken bread on more than one occasion and I've never seen you go on a rant. You're actually an OK guy in person.

The keyboard seems to empower certain types.

[Buzzetta]

There is a lot of interesting and useful information in this thread.  I would hate for it to disappear because the mods felt it was necessary to wipe it or move it. 

[Prince Namor]

In fact I remember specifically you getting freaked out about a conversation we had over pizza at Heroes Con about John Buscema. I was talking about how his superhero stuff seemed cold and solemn, while his Conan stuff had more of a natural warmth to it, and you nearly choked on your food. I couldn't shut up of course, even though it made you as uncomfortable as could be. I stand by what I believe.

[Buzzetta]

With that said, I received a little badge thingy in the mail yesterday... if everyone is going to NYCC they are welcome to hug it out at Stout which has a lot of food and a LOT of different booze. 

It's very close to Penn Station and the LIRR

STOUT NYC FLAGSHIP ~ NEAR MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

133 West 33rd Street 
(between 6th and 7th Avenues)
New York, NY 10001

p: 212-629-6191

Menu: http://www.msg.stoutnyc.com/menu.php

Edited September 2, 2018 by Buzzetta

[Logan510]

Just now, Chuck Gower said:

In fact I remember specifically you getting freaked out about a conversation we had over pizza at Heroes Con about John Buscema. I was talking about how his superhero stuff seemed cold and solemn, while his Conan stuff had more of a natural warmth to it, and you nearly choked on your food. I couldn't shut up of course, even though it made you as uncomfortable as could be. I stand by what I believe.

Wow, "freaked out"? "Nearly choked on my food"? 

That conversation took place at The Ram in Rosemont during WW Chicago, not at Fuel Pizza in Charlotte. Why would your opinion of John Buscema's work make me as "uncomfortable as could be"? 

Either your memory is terrible or you have a severely inflated opinion of yourself.

[tv horror]

1 hour ago, Logan510 said:

I have nothing but respect for Ditko, but nothing he created without Lee has had the lasting impact of The Amazing Spider-Man or Doctor Strange. Why didn't the Blue Beetle, The Creeper or The Question have nearly the impact or popularity? What was missing 

 

[Prince Namor]

Happy Reading everyone! 

Some great information out there! Don't get distracted by the hoopla! 

[jsilverjanet]

The Lee Kirby conversation and to some extent Ditko reminds me of the McCartney, Lennon and Harrison conversation.

lennon in my opinion gets all the credit for being this artist and McCartney none (at Lennon’s level) for writing hit songs. Often forgotten is Harrison who was cooler than both of them.