Value of Restored GA Books

[PovertyRow]

The only comics I've seen with glue on the pages are squarebounds. I've never come across a book with glued pages from the printers beyond such. Doesnl;t mean there aren't any out there. Just never came across them.

[non sequitur]

A separate thread discussed the Nelson chart for valuation of restored comics. I wish I could include a link to the actual chart, but I can't find it, though I did visit the website and copied it (reproduced below):

 

Silver Age (1956-1970)

slight moderate extensive

app NM 9.4 0.15 0.10 0.05

app VF 8.0 0.25 0.20 0.10

app FN 6.0 0.50 0.40 0.30

app VG 4.0 0.70 0.50 0.40

app GD 2.0 0.80 0.60 0.50

 

Golden Age Comics (pre-1956)

slight moderate extensive

app NM 9.4 0.25 0.20 0.125

app VF 8.0 0.50 0.35 0.20

app FN 6.0 0.70 0.60 0.40

app VG 4.0 0.80 0.70 0.50

app GD 2.0 0.90 0.80 0.60

 

So to take a practical example: Detective 27 currently on auction at eBay. It is an extensively restored 9.2. Using guide price of $410K, multiplied by .125 from the above chart, gives a value just over $50,000. Because of the scarcity, high profile and value of the title though, it trades at a multiple, and hence the asking price from $80K to over $100K.

 

Now the scenario: let's say you have 2 copies of Detective 27 in unrestored 2.0 (ps: I have no idea what it started out as, this is all hypothetical). Guide price would be $31,500. One copy is extensively restored to 9.2, and from the preceding paragraph, valued at $50K. The second copy is restored only moderately, to a grade of 7.0, yet is worth (using the above chart):

.48 (average of 8.0 multiple of .35 + 6.0 multiple of .6 /2) multiplied by guide price $142,500 (which is the average of guide prices for an 8.0 and 6.0 /2) = $68,400.

 

Does this make any sense? Should a professionally restored near mint ever be valued less than a moderate, if they both started off at the same grade? I won't complain, because I do own a Tec 27 in moderately restored 7.0, but I don't see that it should be worth LESS than the one currently auctioned, and I'd like to introduce a practical example to get thoughts on restoration in general: does it simply not pay to extensively restore a book if going only half-way results in higher value?

[ft88]

Guides and references are not totally valid for books like Tec 27. That said, I'd rather have the 7.0 moderate but it all depends on the type of restoration. I don't like cleaned covers, trimmin, or pieces added. But seals, married pages, and color touch don't bother me as much.

 

I also prefer 8.0 to 9.2 as opposed to 9.4 to 9.8 given the price spreads.

 

Ed

[FFB]

A separate thread discussed the Nelson chart for valuation of restored comics. I wish I could include a link to the actual chart, but I can't find it, though I did visit the website and copied it (reproduced below):

 

Silver Age (1956-1970)

slight moderate extensive

app NM 9.4 0.15 0.10 0.05

app VF 8.0 0.25 0.20 0.10

app FN 6.0 0.50 0.40 0.30

app VG 4.0 0.70 0.50 0.40

app GD 2.0 0.80 0.60 0.50

 

Golden Age Comics (pre-1956)

slight moderate extensive

app NM 9.4 0.25 0.20 0.125

app VF 8.0 0.50 0.35 0.20

app FN 6.0 0.70 0.60 0.40

app VG 4.0 0.80 0.70 0.50

app GD 2.0 0.90 0.80 0.60

 

So to take a practical example: Detective 27 currently on auction at eBay. It is an extensively restored 9.2. Using guide price of $410K, multiplied by .125 from the above chart, gives a value just over $50,000. Because of the scarcity, high profile and value of the title though, it trades at a multiple, and hence the asking price from $80K to over $100K.

 

Now the scenario: let's say you have 2 copies of Detective 27 in unrestored 2.0 (ps: I have no idea what it started out as, this is all hypothetical). Guide price would be $31,500. One copy is extensively restored to 9.2, and from the preceding paragraph, valued at $50K. The second copy is restored only moderately, to a grade of 7.0, yet is worth (using the above chart):

.48 (average of 8.0 multiple of .35 + 6.0 multiple of .6 /2) multiplied by guide price $142,500 (which is the average of guide prices for an 8.0 and 6.0 /2) = $68,400.

 

Does this make any sense? Should a professionally restored near mint ever be valued less than a moderate, if they both started off at the same grade? I won't complain, because I do own a Tec 27 in moderately restored 7.0, but I don't see that it should be worth LESS than the one currently auctioned, and I'd like to introduce a practical example to get thoughts on restoration in general: does it simply not pay to extensively restore a book if going only half-way results in higher value?

 

This is why I was suggesting the value of a restored book to be:

 

(The value of the book in its pre-restoration condition) PLUS (the reasonable cost of the restoration services rendered) PLUS some kind of a bonus if the work done is of superior quality and the results beyond that which normally could be achieved (for example, a VG or lower book that winds up being higher than apparent VF).

 

There are also problems with this method as well though, as Povertyrow pointed out. If you have a book that is a VG because of a big stain (but would otherwise be a VF/NM) and you can completely remove the stain through a simple cleaning and pressing that costs $120, that book should be worth more than another copy of the same book that started out as a VG because of creasing and edge wear and that required $500 worth of work to get up to VF/NM.

 

Maybe the answer is to meld Matt's "extensivity factor based" valuation system with the one I proposed?

[Timely]

Is it true that some comic books, in addition to the usual staple(s), have pages glued together when they were constructed (Golden age war year books)? If so, how does one distinguish this type of glue from something added after the production of the comic book (i.e- "small amout of glue on the cover")??

 

Yes, many GA comics have pages glued in from the manufacture. Usually when glue is on the outside of a cover it is done to seal a tear...etc. Basically, the glue is in a different spot than where the manufacturer puts it.

 

West

[non sequitur]

Quote:

"This is why I was suggesting the value of a restored book to be:

(The value of the book in its pre-restoration condition) PLUS (the reasonable cost of the restoration services rendered) PLUS some kind of a bonus if the work done is of superior quality and the results beyond that which normally could be achieved (for example, a VG or lower book that winds up being higher than apparent VF)."

 

 

I agree that neither system is perfect, but there is a more fundamental problem with this method, and that is: there is oftentimes NO way to determine what the pre-restoration grading may have been. If you can't know for certain that your 9.2 extensive (or 7.0 moderate) used to be a 2.0, unless the owner is kind enough to disclose that information (which may or may not be truthful, or even known).

 

The system would have more legs if CGC, in the early days, had assigned information to the serial number such as: when first documented, prior ownership (a famous actor could boost value), original condition, subsequent restorations, etc.

 

The other benefit of such a system would have been population statistic accuracy: how do we know that the 9.2 now in existence is not duplicative of the 3.0 unrestored in the same population report? There may be half as many copies of a particular comic in existence, but because of possible duplication within the same population report, we might never know.

[FFB]

Quote:

"This is why I was suggesting the value of a restored book to be:

(The value of the book in its pre-restoration condition) PLUS (the reasonable cost of the restoration services rendered) PLUS some kind of a bonus if the work done is of superior quality and the results beyond that which normally could be achieved (for example, a VG or lower book that winds up being higher than apparent VF)."

 

 

I agree that neither system is perfect, but there is a more fundamental problem with this method, and that is: there is oftentimes NO way to determine what the pre-restoration grading may have been. If you can't know for certain that your 9.2 extensive (or 7.0 moderate) used to be a 2.0, unless the owner is kind enough to disclose that information (which may or may not be truthful, or even known).

 

The system would have more legs if CGC, in the early days, had assigned information to the serial number such as: when first documented, prior ownership (a famous actor could boost value), original condition, subsequent restorations, etc.

 

The other benefit of such a system would have been population statistic accuracy: how do we know that the 9.2 now in existence is not duplicative of the 3.0 unrestored in the same population report? There may be half as many copies of a particular comic in existence, but because of possible duplication within the same population report, we might never know.

 

You may not be able to get the pre-resto grade exactly right, but you can usually tell within a grade or two what the book started out as.

[non sequitur]

How - by using the restoration comments?

 

I wouldn't know how, so let me give you 2 examples (both from my above hypothetical of the 9.2 and 7.0) and you tell me:

 

"Apparent FN/VF 7.0 Moderate (P)

Restoration includes color touch, pieces added, tear seals, cleaned

off-white to white pages"

 

"Apparent NM- 9.2 Extensive (P)

Restoration includes color touch, pieces added, tear seals, cleaned, reinforced

off-white pages"

 

So, what were they unrestored, and which is worth more?

[lou_fine]

That color touch wouldn't bother me at all. It is becoming absurd, if not already there, at the level of stigma that attaches to such books like this. There really needs to be a rethinking of how restoration, if thats what it is, is to play a role in this hobby

 

Mark;

 

In complete agreement with you here.

 

As I have stated many times before in the past, I strongly feel that CGC should adopt Jon Berk's original concept of a one colour label system incorporating an 10-point restoration rating system.

 

Needless to say, a lot of the forum members here are in complete disagreement with this, since they claim that this will simply add confusion into the marketplace by blurring the difference between restored and unrestored books.

 

Makes absolutely no sense to me since buyers seem to have no problem differentiating between CGC 2.0 graded books from CGC 9.0 books even though they use the same colour label.

[Silver Surfer]

That color touch wouldn't bother me at all. It is becoming absurd, if not already there, at the level of stigma that attaches to such books like this. There really needs to be a rethinking of how restoration, if thats what it is, is to play a role in this hobby

 

Mark;

 

In complete agreement with you here.

 

As I have stated many times before in the past, I strongly feel that CGC should adopt Jon Berk's original concept of a one colour label system incorporating an 10-point restoration rating system.

 

Needless to say, a lot of the forum members here are in complete disagreement with this, since they claim that this will simply add confusion into the marketplace by blurring the difference between restored and unrestored books.

 

Makes absolutely no sense to me since buyers seem to have no problem differentiating between CGC 2.0 graded books from CGC 9.0 books even though they use the same colour label.

 

Berk's idea is a great one but didn't Mark mention that CGC is in the process of rolling out a new process for dealing with restored books in his San Diego thread? Bought my first restored book just a few months ago and it was a hell of a deal. I admit I still whince at PLOD's but some of this GA stuff is just so out of reach that I rather own a PLOD than nothing at all.

[FFB]

How - by using the restoration comments?

 

I wouldn't know how, so let me give you 2 examples (both from my above hypothetical of the 9.2 and 7.0) and you tell me:

 

"Apparent FN/VF 7.0 Moderate (P)

Restoration includes color touch, pieces added, tear seals, cleaned

off-white to white pages"

 

"Apparent NM- 9.2 Extensive (P)

Restoration includes color touch, pieces added, tear seals, cleaned, reinforced

off-white pages"

 

So, what were they unrestored, and which is worth more?

 

You'd need the book in hand, out of the slab. I am not saying I'd be able to tell by looking at a CGC label. That'd be kind of dumb, since CGC doesn't necessarily list everything that was done to a book, and also because you can't tell how extensive a lot of work is unless the book it out of the slab.

[non sequitur]

I'd agree. Unfortunately, the opportunity to remove the book from the capsule to make that kind of examination is not typically possible (seller won't let you remove it, and if you do it yourself after buying, you risk invalidating the CGC grade, plus having to pay for re-encapsulation). Purchases being made via internet, complicates things further (even less opportunity to make examination).

 

Silver Surfer: I understand CGC restored grade was discussed in San Diego, but have any actual plans been developed?

[Silver Surfer]

Silver Surfer: I understand CGC restored grade was discussed in San Diego, but have any actual plans been developed?

 

I believe Mark Z said news was forthcoming but he didn't want to spoil it?

[FFB]

I'd agree. Unfortunately, the opportunity to remove the book from the capsule to make that kind of examination is not typically possible (seller won't let you remove it, and if you do it yourself after buying, you risk invalidating the CGC grade, plus having to pay for re-encapsulation). Purchases being made via internet, complicates things further (even less opportunity to make examination).

 

Maybe the way to go about it would be to assign "general" pre-restoration grades where the actual pre-restoration grade isn't available. For example, anything with a significant piece missing is going to grade no better than a FN even if the rest of the book was perfect, and since most books with pieces missing are far from otherwise-perfect, the best grade a book could get with a significant piece missing and other wear would be about a 3.0.

 

So instead of trying to drill down with expert detail on the pre-restoration grade of the book, you limit the scale of pre-restoration grades to:

 

PR 0.5

 

FR 1.0

 

GD 2.0

 

VG 4.0

 

FN 6.0

 

VF 8.0

 

VF/NM 9.0

 

and then the higher grades of 9.2, 9.4, 9.6, etc., because it's easier to tell what grade a book was when it started out when all that has been done is that a dot of color touch was added to cover up a single spine stress.

 

As for cracking books out to look at them, it is true that this isn't usually allowed before purchase. But someone looking at the book through the slab could probably say "before that big piece was added and the complete split up the entire spine was sealed, this book was about a FR 1.0." I think it might be more doable than one would think.