Qualified for Marriage?

[greggy]

Greggys argument using the green label with full disclosure doesn't wash.

 

So, how is having a restored lable with the same comments: "Married cover" going to help these misinformed buyers? I don't think that CGC is going to describe the whole process as restoration includes: "Cover cut out from a cover proof and attached to another coverless book". They are just not that descriptive! If the buyer has any questions, they should ask before they buy!

[Illiterati-migration]

The cover on this book DID NOT come from another book.

 

Excellent post, Hammer. My question now is: have we established where the innards of this book came from? And if the case is that these pages came from a book with a cover that was deemed inferior (and was then removed), and the new cover was married in order to improve the grade on the old innards, is that not restoration?

 

Is not a book judged by both the cover AND the interior? Since these two were never ORIGINALLY joined in production, and the innards of the book were in fact USED in another book-construct, the joining of these "old" innards and the "new" cover is restoration. It's kinda chicken-or-egg with this thing, eh? Which is more important? Cover or interior pages? Are they separate but equal?

 

Ooo, how about this: What if it was an INTERIOR page that was removed and replaced with another one? What would it grade at then? Let's not get "wrapped up" (BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) in the fact that this is a "cover story" (BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Oh jesus, I've got to stop! My sides! My sides!

[hammer-migration]

Here's the way I view it. Restoration was NOT performed on the original book. The cover (be it ANY grade, Fair to NM) was discarded and the perfect cover affixed in reassembly. THAT cover BELONGS on that interior. They are of the same issue and they go together. New holes didn't have to be bored into that file cover to accomodate varying staple position (cover to cover) because there were NO holes in that cover sheet to begin with (it never having been used). Even if the copy used had a NM cover, it still would look a far cry from the UNUSED, never assembled file cover. Look at the colors and paper quality! Like the day it was printed! The interior has ALWAYS been subordinate to the cover anyway as far as grading and price. If this isn't so, why are CGC 9.4s allowed to have cream to off-white pages? Why does a coverless Spiderman 1 sell for far less than a complete 1.0??? And would a coverless Strange Tales 37 have ANY resale value at all??? This book is NOT a restored "old" book. It is an original, VINTAGE issue with a recent construct. It is also the sharpest looking copy of that book in existance...by an ultra-wide margin.

[PovertyRow]

(responding to two seperate posts by Hammer - just to save some space)

 

It is an original, VINTAGE issue with a recent construct. It is also the sharpest looking copy of that book in existance

 

One of the things that make condition so desireable is the scarcity of books that have survived for decades and still look almost new. This is not an original vintage issue. It is an original vintage interior that never saw the original vintage cover until recently. It no real history as a complete, individual entity.

 

Whoever assembled this book DID WHAT THE FACTORY DID DECADES AGO when the book was initially produced. They first disassembled, then carefully reassembled.

 

The printers do not assemble and then disassemble. They just assemble.

 

In other words, no restorative procedures of any kind (if restoration can be explained as the procedure of performing visual improvement).

 

I would consider replacing a less than perfect cover with a near perfect cover two things: piece replacement and a procedure to perform a visual improvement.

 

If you find a 1936 Auburn Boat-Tail Roadster in a factory, but it is UNASSEMBLED, is it a restored car if you re-assemble it in 2003?

 

I would say yes, it is restored because the assembly did not take place at the factory, with factory trained people, using factory equipment.

 

Or is it still worth 2 million dollars because it would be the absolute CLEANEST example in the history of automotive collectibles, never having been assembled until NOW, from MINT parts?

 

I'm sure it would still be worth the big dollars because restoration of cars is an accepted and desireable aspect of car collecting, just as restoration is accepted and desireable in fine arts. But in comics, restoration is generally not considered desireable.

 

===addendum=== When I say "in comics, restoration is generally not considered desirable" I am NOT saying restoration is undesireable. What I MEANT was that restoration is currently not considered to be desireable by many collectors. I DO see that changing as people understand more about what restoration is and how it can help.

[fantastic_four]

But in comics, restoration is generally not considered desireable.

And why is that? You're arguing this position as if the general market perception of restoration is the right one, when it isn't. It's an ignorant one. And you're far from ignorant about these issues, but I think I understand your plight. You just trying to fit in with the community; but on this issue, you shouldn't fit in, you should take the lead.

 

This isn't restoration, it's marriage. Nothing added that didn't come from Atlas, nothing subtracted that did come from Atlas. Focusing on who did the work is fine if you're OK with having that kind of mental illness , so dislike marrying if you want.

 

Even though I can see your points, it's hard to understand why you're arguing them when they contribute to the ignorance of the market on comic restoration. Argue steadfastly on different topics, please! With your knowledge, you're one of the only ones that can alter people's perceptions!!

[hammer-migration]

I do understand Pov's point. His argument is from the level of purity. Expanding the perception, the definition of restoration to signify: Any deviation, no matter how slight from "as issued" by the factory that produced the item for its intended purpose in its originally designed state. I feel there are far too many gray areas to accept this as a tenet, although my opinion of Pov's knowledge and hobby sense is extremely high. I DO think that in person, book in hand, the three of us would be drooling over it!

[Illiterati-migration]

Okay, this is fascinating. The fact still remains that the book itself (innards minus cover) was extant before this cover was added. This book did not sit as a pile of pages for decades before someone found a cover and stapled it all together. The original innards of the book IS the book. The cover that never saw a "run" in the marketplace and never was attached to the book.... Ohhhhh. [!@#%^&^].

 

Maybe they could just develop a half-n-half label? Tie-dyed, maybe?

 

However, I will never acknowledge that a cover is the greater of the two elements in a book. Comic books would not have survived as an "art form" if they were JUST a cover... same as they would not have survived if they were JUST innards (though that is debatable). As far as the importance of the two elements are concerned, I would have to give the edge to the innards... but in this case, they could certainly be perceived as separate but equal.

[PovertyRow]

Even though I can see your points, it's hard to understand why you're arguing them when they contribute to the ignorance of the market on comic restoration. Argue steadfastly on different topics, please! With your knowledge, you're one of the only ones that can alter people's perceptions!!

 

Holy mackeral, FF! I didn't realize you were that passionate about this. Well, I am too. But you are reading me wrong. I have to argue the points I believe, and I do believe what I said - hammer put it very nicely in his response.

 

I am not arguing for or against restoration: I am arguing as to what I perceive as what constitues restoration. You know that I am in favor of restoration and have done my share of it in the past. But I am also not going to let my pro-restoration perception make me call what I feel IS restoration a qualified instead. And when I said "restoration is generally not considered desireable" - hmmm - that DID come out wrong and I shall correct it in the post with an addendum. I MEANT that currently many collectors do not find restoration desireable. I was trying to contrast that to automobiles (as Hammer brought up an automobile analogy) and to the art world, where restoration is acknowledged and very well accepted.

 

More when I get home - in the laundromat on one of theose internet contraptions. Nice way to idle away the rinse cycle.

[fantastic_four]

Maybe they could just develop a half-n-half label? Tie-dyed, maybe?

I know you're kidding, but related to the topic--CGC already has exactly the right label on this comic. Qualified, married.

[hammer-migration]

VERY valid point. That's why a cover itself would not fare that much better in the open marketplace than just a coverless copy. To be whole, considered a comic BOOK, the two must be joined. Actually, the 11 separate components that make up a Silver age comic (8 sheets of interior paper depicting 4 story pages each, 2 staples, and a cover). A coverless will have MORE value to someone that has a nice cover, the interior of THAT book possibly being incomplete or defective in some way, and vice-versa. Still, the whole is far greater than the sum of its parts. This is why I also feel that books MISSING a staple should be downgraded FAR more than CGC seemingly does. In this case scenerio, a PART is missing. I've heard that the Eastern uncut file covers originally were bought by one dealer for an average of LESS than 1/2 price guide GOOD (at THAT time).

[PovertyRow]

His argument is from the level of purity. Expanding the perception, the definition of restoration to signify: Any deviation, no matter how slight from "as issued" by the factory that produced the item for its intended purpose in its originally designed state.

 

Jeeze Hammer that is eloquent! And pretty accurate. the only thing I would add would be "with the intention of improving the appearance or the structural integrity of the piece."

 

And your right - I WOULD drool over that book! I have ruined many a beautiful but restored book with my drippings!

[fantastic_four]

This is why I also feel that books MISSING a staple should be downgraded FAR more than CGC seemingly does.

Do you mean a staple that has been pulled out, or a book manufactured without a staple? Don't they give the qualified grade to missing staples? I know they give Qualified to books where the staple has pulled through the cover, but I'm not sure I can recall seeing any book with a missing staple as Universal unless it was a manufacturing defect.

[PovertyRow]

I've been doing some thinking Hammer, cause something just hasn;t been setting just right with the automobile analogy. Just figured out what it is.

 

In your example you used a car that had never been assembled before, was discoered fully inatct with all pieces,and assembled.

 

For this particular concept, marriage of cover to book, the better analogy would be to take a car that had been manufactured at the plant, is now in the hands of a collector, and they replace the body (of unknown condition) with an unused one one found at the plant. Would that car considered to be restored?

 

To use your car analogy, a MUCH MORE FASCINATING thing would have to occur. Finding printer's pages to a complete comic book, just as they came out of the press, and then cuting/assembling/binding it. Under that condition I would honestly have no idea WHAT to call it. It can't honestly be called restored because there was no existing book. Qualified? That would be a possibility. The more I tihnk about that the more I think Qualified would actually work. But not 100% sure.

 

On another front - what would be the best thing to DO with such a find? Leave it undisturbed? Create the book? I'd hope for two sets and then do both!

[hammer-migration]

Pov, in my analogy, the car was found in unused parts, UNASSEMBLED.

Also, This is one of those gray areas I speak of with respect to label assignment and the depressive way that we think of restoration on books. I've seen and bought some of these File copies in CGC purple holders labeled "CLEANED and PRESSED", TRIMMED! Look at that Strange Tales #37. Its brilliance of color may cause a false positive for cleaning and pressing because it's too damned clean. NO transfer stains, no toning, no dirt, etc. In a few cases, similar file copies HAVE been erroneously labeled Purple C&P. They're NOT. They only give the appearance of being processed due to an abnormally sharp presentation.

[hammer-migration]

I've won 2 CGC BLUE label books "manufactured with one staple". One was a 9.0 FF 48, the other I don't recall at the moment. Could have been an FF 45 in 9.2 .

[PovertyRow]

Pov, in my analogy, the car was found in unused parts, UNASSEMBLED.

 

Exactly - which is why the only comic parallel would be to find a complete but hitherto unassembled book (for example, at the printer.)

 

Since this book was already assembled before the cover was replaced, we have to now look to a pre-assembled car and replace the "cover" - aka in a car - the body.

[Aman619]

boy oh boy ---I hope Danny Dupcak aka Fantazia aka Comickeys is reading this thread cause half of you are excusing him for his Easter "file copy" scam he pulled years ago!!

 

If a comic cover gets soiled ripped scuffed or damaged and you later find a better one, in this case a mint, unused, untrimmed printer's proof, and you replace the cover on the original interior pages--- you have RESTORED the cover to its original appearance.. If replacement of PARTS of a cover or interior is restoration. It stands to reason that replacing 100% of a cover is too.

 

I dont even understand how you could ever find all the parts to a classic car so I dont understand that analogy at all. sorry

[Illiterati-migration]

The whole concept of "restoration" is in question now. What if you restore a cover, but not the interior? What if you restore the interior, but not the cover? My mind is blown.

[hammer-migration]

I had already figured out your true agenda and was just waiting for you to play your hand. Do you have PROOF that I am who you say I am? Can you back up your statement either here or in a Court of Law because now you are making SLANDEROUS statements that I will no longer take lightly. Even if it means legally petitioning this site for your full contact information for the purpose of civil action.

[fantastic_four]

Hammer = comic-keys

 

If it wasn't already obvious from his previous post.