Heritage's Next Event Auction has started posting books ! 31 31

[batman_fan]

On 10/18/2023 at 10:34 AM, lou_fine said:

You left out the first Joker cover, namely this one here:    

I can’t afford to collect Detectives 

[blackterror]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:34 PM, lou_fine said:

You left out the first Joker cover, namely this one here:    

batman_fan didn't leave it out ... because it's not a Joker cover and it's way past time to get this straight.

Things that are different are not the same.

Detective Comics 62 is the FIRST JOKER COVER. Detective 40 is a MODIFIED Joker panel from Batman 1. The modification made what WAS the Joker in the Bat 1 panel appear more like Clayface on the cover of Tec 40. Things that are different are not the same!

 

Why did DC do this? Bat 1 was going to print before Tec 40 and DC needed another Bat story to complete the book. So, they moved the Bat/Joker story that was intended for Tec 40 into the Bat 1. Then DC prepared a new story for Tec 40 featuring Clayface to replace the Bat/Joker story they moved to Bat 1.

 

Now the Tec 40 had a Joker cover that no longer lined up with the Clayface story inside ... so rather than redraw the cover - DC CHANGED THE COVER and recolored what WAS the Joker on the cover of Tec 40 to appear like Clayface.

 

The cover of Tec 40 WHILE SIMILAR to the Joker panel in Bat 1 is - NOT THE SAME. Things that are different are not the same.

 

After re-coloring the cover of Tec 40 - the Joker was NO LONGER the Joker by intent or actual appearance.

 

Detective 62 is truly the FIRST Joker cover - not Tec 40.

 

But wait ... some Bat 11's have earlier news-stand dates than Tec 62 so maybe - just maybe - Batman 11 is the first JOKER cover

 

Now this has been a matter of debate for some time - here's a link to an earlier thread - but even in this thread nearmint states that the cover of TEC 40 is PRACTICALLY a mirror image from the Joker story in BAT 1 - the word practically is another way of saying - THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME.   Two identical twins are NOT the same person although they may be  - practically - mirror images of one another.  

 

  

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by blackterror

[Professor K]

[Aman619]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:38 AM, blackterror said:

batman_fan didn't leave it out ... because it's not a Joker cover and it's way past time to get this straight.

Things that are different are not the same.

Detective Comics 62 is the FIRST JOKER COVER. Detective 40 is a MODIFIED Joker panel from Batman 1. The modification made what WAS the Joker in the Bat 1 panel appear more like Clayface on the cover of Tec 40. Things that are different are not the same!

 

Why did DC do this? Bat 1 was going to print before Tec 40 and DC needed another Bat story to complete the book. So, they moved the Bat/Joker story that was intended for Tec 40 into the Bat 1. Then DC prepared a new story for Tec 40 featuring Clayface to replace the Bat/Joker story they moved to Bat 1.

 

Now the Tec 40 had a Joker cover that no longer lined up with the Clayface story inside ... so rather than redraw the cover - DC CHANGED THE COVER and recolored what WAS the Joker on the cover of Tec 40 to appear like Clayface.

 

The cover of Tec 40 WHILE SIMILAR to the Joker panel in Bat 1 is - NOT THE SAME. Things that are different are not the same.

 

After re-coloring the cover of Tec 40 - the Joker was NO LONGER the Joker by intent or actual appearance.

 

Detective 62 is truly the FIRST Joker cover - not Tec 40.

 

But wait ... some Bat 11's have earlier news-stand dates than Tec 62 so maybe - just maybe - Batman 11 is the first JOKER cover

 

Now this has been a matter of debate for some time - here's a link to an earlier thread - but even in this thread nearmint states that the cover of TEC 40 is PRACTICALLY a mirror image from the Joker story in BAT 1 - the word practically is another way of saying - THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME.   Two identical twins are NOT the same person although they may be  - practically - mirror images of one another.  

 

  

 

makes a lot of sense!   however.   Artist is hired to draw a Joker cover based on a panel with Joker.  He draws it.  It exists.  An editorial decisions says that it's NO LONGER the Joker, and to make it so and repurpose it rather than redraw it, they just COLOR it differently than as planned.   Does that really make it NOT the Joker anymore?  To me it lives in a duality, a quantum state as two things at the same time (if you will).  The Joker artwork appears first in a comic book, even though DC wants us to forget that the drawing is the Joker and the matching story appears elsewhere.  There's too much still linking it to being a joker drawing for me to be fully convinced.

[adamstrange]

On 10/19/2023 at 4:16 PM, Aman619 said:

makes a lot of sense!   however.   Artist is hired to draw a Joker cover based on a panel with Joker.  He draws it.  It exists.  An editorial decisions says that it's NO LONGER the Joker, and to make it so and repurpose it rather than redraw it, they just COLOR it differently than as planned.   Does that really make it NOT the Joker anymore?  To me it lives in a duality, a quantum state as two things at the same time (if you will).  The Joker artwork appears first in a comic book, even though DC wants us to forget that the drawing is the Joker and the matching story appears elsewhere.  There's too much still linking it to being a joker drawing for me to be fully convinced.

Tec 62 and Batman 11 definitely have Joker covers.

Maybe Tec 40 does, but no one call tell for us certain.

[Pantodude]

You guys are just joking, right (pun intended)?  Because Tec40 is the first joker cover, and there's no doubt about it, as recognized by  third-party graders, Overstreet, big auction houses like Heritage, and anyone who read Bat 1 (on-sale date April 24, 1940) followed by Tec40 (on-sale date May 3, 1940) just nine (9!) days later (they were essentially on the newsstand simultaneously).   

Easy enough to demonstrate using the covers and panels in the pertinent books (Bat1, Tec40) themselves. 

One should place himself at the time Bat 1 and Tec 40 were issued.  If you do, it is clear that -- regardless of the story contained within Tec40 -- it was the Joker, and could only be interpreted as the Joker, on the cover when Tec 40 came out, especially considering how the Joker had looked up until THAT point (pre-Tec62, Bat11, Tec69,etc). 

The evidence is in Bat 1 itself.  Here is the key scene from Bat1:

 

In case it is not clear WHO that is chopping away at the pole, it's the Joker.  After readers digested the above key scene, they were treated to THIS preview of Tec40 on the last page of Bat1 itself:

 

 

Having seen that pole-chopping scene in Bat 1, followed immediately by that ad in the same Bat 1, readers could only have construed Tec40's cover to depict the Joker:

 

 

So in real time, back in the day, upon reading the key book Bat 1, readers could only have construed the axe-wielding figure on Tec40 as the Joker. 

And just to be clear, the Tec40 cover's Joker does look very much like the Joker as drawn in Bat1 panels, when the Joker was still less colorfully drawn.   Look at Bat1 page 7 front:

 

 

And Bat1 page 7 rear:

 

You can see Tec40 cover's Joker had the same hat, coat, and vest, and even the same ribbon-like tie, but sans the gloves, as in Bat1.  Even had a similar pale face, although in Bat1 it was whiter.  Joker's turned face in the key scene on the roof in Bat1 has no makeup!  Just like in Tec40's cover, where the Joker also has his face turned while on the roof with no makeup.  

If you want to say that in Tec 62, the Joker looked more like he did post-Tec40, that's fine.  That's true.  All good.  And that is why I LOVE Tec62's cover, balloons and all.  But in Tec62, he looks different than in his intro book Bat1 and intro cover Tec40:

 

A great cover.  But the Joker on the Tec40 cover looked more like the Joker in the Bat1 panels than the Joker on the Tec62 cover.  Unless my eyes are failing me, which is possible.  Anyway, that how it played out historically. So Tec40 is the Joker's 1st cover appearance.

Both Tec40's and Tec62's covers are awesome in their own right.  And they are both also essential because they show the evolution of Joker's appearance.  

Edited October 21, 2023 by Pantodude

[adamstrange]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:22 PM, Pantodude said:

You guys are just joking, right (pun intended)?  Because Tec40 is the first joker cover, and there's no doubt about it, as recognized by DC itself years later, and the third-party graders and Overstreet (and anyone who read Bat 1 followed by Tec40, as they were published back in the day).   

Not joking.

I have not seen any of those three sources cite any evidence beyond their interpretation of the published comics.  Without that, they are just three more opinions on the matter.

I concede that the Tec 40 cover is clearly the same scene as the one in the splash panel from Batman 1.  However, swiping and re-purposing was common in the GA, so I am not convinced Tec 40 is a Joker cover.  It might actually be a Joker cover that was simply mis-colored, or it might a Joker cover re-purposed to be a Clayface cover.  Without records from that time or comments from the people involved, I am unwilling to eliminate either possibility.

 

[Funnybooks]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:22 PM, Pantodude said:

You guys are just joking, right (pun intended)?  Because Tec40 is the first joker cover, and there's no doubt about it, as recognized by  third-party graders, Overstreet, big auction houses like Heritage (and anyone who read Bat 1 followed by Tec40 three months later, as they were published back in the day).   

Easy enough to demonstrate using the covers and panels in the pertinent books (Bat1, Tec40) themselves. 

One should place himself at the time Bat 1 and Tec 40 were issued.  If you do, it is clear that -- regardless of the story contained within Tec40 -- it was the Joker, and could only be interpreted as the Joker, on the cover when Tec 40 came out, especially considering how the Joker had looked up until THAT point (pre-Tec62, Bat11, Tec69,etc). 

The evidence is in Bat 1 itself.  Here is the key scene from Bat1:

 

In case it is not clear WHO that is chopping away at the pole, it's the Joker.  After readers digested the above key scene, they were treated to THIS preview of Tec40 on the last page of Bat1 itself:

 

 

Having seen that pole-chopping seen in Bat 1, followed immediately by that ad in the same Bat 1, readers could only have construed Tec40's cover to depict the Joker:

 

 

So in real time, back in the day, upon reading the key book Bat 1, readers could only have construed the axe-wielding figure on Tec40 as the Joker. 

And just to be clear, the Tec40 cover's Joker does look very much like the Joker as drawn in Bat1 panels, when the Joker was still less colorfully drawn.   Look at Bat1 page 7 front:

 

 

And Bat1 page 7 rear:

 

You can see Tec40 cover's Joker had the same hat, coat, and vest, and even the same ribbon-like tie, but sans the gloves, as in Bat1.  Even had a similar pale face, although in Bat1 it was whiter.  Joker's turned face in the key scene on the roof in Bat1 has no makeup!  Just like in Tec40's cover, where the Joker also has his face turned while on the roof with no makeup.  

If you want to say that in Tec 62, the Joker looked more like he did post-Tec40, that's fine.  That's true.  All good.  And that is why I LOVE Tec62's cover, balloons and all.  But in Tec62, he looks different than in his intro book Bat1 and intro cover Tec40:

 

A great cover.  But the Joker on the Tec40 cover looked more like the Joker in the Bat1 panels than the Joker on the Tec62 cover.  Unless my eyes are failing me, which is possible.  Anyway, that how it played out historically. So Tec40 is the Joker's 1st cover appearance.

Both Tec40's and Tec62's covers are awesome in their own right.  And they are both also essential because they show the evolution of Joker's appearance.  

No doubt and 100% agreed. It's clearly the Joker.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Funnybooks

[Professor K]

Hope someone here got it. Great book, good price. Nice 3.5.

[mwotka]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:55 PM, Professor K said:

Hope someone here got it. Great book, good price. Nice 3.5.

I tried to bid but I feel like that one opened and closed in like 5 seconds (HA needs to work on keeping items open a little longer, I think).  A 1.5 copy (albeit nicer looking) just closed on eBay 4 days ago for $1,675.  Someone got a real deal here.

[blackterror]

Pantodude - I appreciate the time and effort you put into this ... we all love comics here, and I'm sure we are both set in our views ... but you literally prove my point.

Things that are different are not the same ... you even admit they are not the same ... and then you come to the conclusion that they are same?!?

You say and I quote ... the Tec40 cover's Joker does look very much like the Joker as drawn in Bat1 ... very much like is DIFFERENT - it's not the same!  If it was the same it would be the Joker - but it's not the same - it's different - so it's not the Joker.  You have convinced yourself that things that are different are the same - but it's not ever going to convince me.  Identical twins are not the same.  Batman 227 is not Detective 31.  The Joker in Bat 1 was purposed to be on the cover of Tec 40 - but DC changed it!  They recolored it!

You also say and I quote "Even had a similar pale face, although in Bat1 it was whiter."  Similar is not the same.  It's not the Joker or it would be the same.  

In saying the Tec 40 cover villain is the Joker because he is similar to the Joker as drawn in Bat 1 story - we could also do the same, by pointing out similarities to the appearance of Clayface in the Tec 40 story.  It's a great story and look at how Clayface clothes and hat and appearance is also similar to the character on the cover of the book.  Here's a link - I hope it works ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-kYsFDUwLk&t=662s

The first Joker cover is Tec 62 or maybe Bat 11 - Tec 40 almost was - could have been - and I guess some people wish it was.  But then we come back to reality - THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME

Not the same in appearance - intent - or purpose.  DC repurposed the cover to appear more like Clayface in the story in the book and less like the Joker who was now in a story over in Batman 1.  

Again we are all comic lovers here ... I really appreciated your images and thoughts.   I don't expect to change your mind - I get where you are coming from - but wonder if you get where I'm coming from.  Clearly the idea that there are people who have a different view came as af shock to you -and I quote ... "You guys are just joking, right (pun intended)?"  I love your pun by the way. 

I just want you to know I'm not joking -

Saying Tec 40 is the first appearance of the Joker is a misnomer -

Koala Bears aren't bears.  Starfish aren't fish.  Guinea Pigs aren't pigs. ... and Detective 40 is not the first Joker cover.

Detective 62 is truly the FIRST Joker cover - not Tec 40.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by blackterror

[Aman619]

geez.  now your repetitious catchphrase is getting old...  and doesn't prove anything.... To borrow your analogy:  repeating something over and over doesn't prove the point.   I liked your take on it, but to me, clearly the drawing IS the Joker... recolored.  If Superman's costume was colored green would he NOT be Superman?  Was the grey Hulk NOT the same Hulk after they made him green?  Editorial reasons caused the change, like the Joker on Dec 40.

yes I know its not the same thing, and yes I admit there some wiggle room because DC didnt want us to know it was the Joker in the artwork.  I mean, after they originally DID want that and assigned the artist to draw the Joker similar to the panel in the story that was supposed to be in Tec 40.   (That both Clayface and Joker wore raincoats and shared a hat has more to do with the artists limitations than proof its Clayface, or NOT Joker)

bottom line our hobby has a few remnant declarations of key books etc. Hulk 180 or 181, OOAW 81 or 83, WW 105 or 98... And occasionally, the collectors vote with the wallets and the hobby moves away from what they thought they knew.  So this COULD go that way.  A few of us arguing over it wont be the deciding factor.   

[woowoo]

Then what is the first Lois Lane cover 

Edited October 20, 2023 by woowoo

[Aman619]

Add it to my list.  Another mystery to be finally resolved someday. 

[Funnybooks]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:15 AM, woowoo said:

Then what is the first Lois Lane cover 

#27 first Lois Lion

[lou_fine]

Which brings up a great question that's been puzzling me for year.......................who's this good looking blond dude here on the cover of New York World's Fair 1939?  

Is that just a typo under his pic and this is really the first comic book appearance of Aquaman, and not in More Fun 73 a couple of years later?  

Edited October 20, 2023 by lou_fine

[Superman2006]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:18 PM, lou_fine said:

Which brings up a great question that's been puzzling me for year.......................who's this good looking blond dude here on the cover of New York World's Fair 1939?  

 

Is that just a typo under his pic and this is really the first comic book appearance of Aquaman, and not in More Fun 73 a couple of years later?  

Yeah, that image of blond Superman popped in my head as well with all the earlier posts about the coloring of the Joker on Tec #40  

[action1kid]

When my printer runs out of black ink it prints yello.

[Superman2006]

On 10/20/2023 at 7:19 PM, action1kid said:

When my printer runs out of black ink it prints yello.

Except that in the case of New York World's Fair 1939 all copies have blond Superman on the cover, and there's plenty of other black on the cover.

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:15 PM, woowoo said:

Then what is the first Lois Lane cover