7 YEAR MICRO-CHAMBER TUNE-UP?

[BronzeBruce13]

I posted this in different, unrelated thread in General recently. I'm not sure if it belongs there as a new seperate topic... or here... but it seems to fall under the category of "grading" because there are some questions as to the need for, and consequences of not changing the Micro-Chamber paper every 7 years as was suggested by CGC (in some manner). Maybe this topic will receive more response here and we can come up with some facts and answers...

 

....................................................................................7 YEAR MICRO-CHAMBER TUNE-UP?....................................................................................

 

This bothered the hell out of me when I first heard it and I was expecting immediate outrage from members of the board, but none came and I was perplexed and put it out of my mind as I did not really want to think about it. I always bought CGC slabs with the thought that they did not need maintenance... ever. If so, that should be on the label... sort of an "Expiration Date" right? Here we go.. me and labels again

 

I just read the label and it makes no mention of the 7 YEAR TUNE-UP... but does reiterate the need for proper storage conditions.... which we all know.

 

I suspect (seriously hope) the micro-chamber 7 year tune-up is really NOT very important at all IF (IF) your CGC books are stored properly. I assume this because raw books that have been stored correctly and in a controlled environment seem to stay pretty much as they were over extended time. The micro-chamber inserts may just protect it further and probably make up for less than ideal storage conditions for up to 7 years... and then maybe they can't help stave off the decay IF storage condition are less than ideal.

 

Does this make any sense... or am I whacked and wishing big time?

 

Also...

 

1. Can anyone verify if this recommendation was issued when the company first started 3 years ago?

 

2. If not, when did this suggestion surface?

 

3. Will anyone even consider sending in their prized collection of hundreds of slabs for this tune-up in 4-5 years.. more importantly can anyone afford it?

 

4. What exactly are the consequences your books will suffer for not doing so?

 

5. Has anyone factored this into the equation... if investment is at all part of their thinking?

 

I sense a poll...

 

I hope the 7 YEAR MICRO-CHAMBER TUNE-UP is really NOT a strong recommendation (or requirement) unless you live in an environment that is clearly less than ideal for proper storage (Seattle?). IF this IS indeed a strong recommendation (and essentially necessary for some reason I can't yet grasp) please watch for the BB13 collection unload sale around the 5-6 year CGC anniversary. Even at a slight loss (which I seriously doubt will happen to my books >hoping<) it will far outweigh the fees needed to accomplish this "tune up"... then I'll buy newer ones.. or give the hell up. I'll certainly unload before the public makes it an issue for resale.

 

Thinking out loud: I thought about getting one of those food storage plastic shinkwrap thingies that seal food airtight. I figured I could do this to each slab, lock it airtight and extend its survival...but I never could determine if this was helpful or harmful as I've heard conflicting arguments.

 

Any help?

[Crackandpresstoan11]

Sure, Break it out of the slab and put it in mylar.

[murph0]

If they are asking people to have their books regraded every 7 years, there isn't a chance in hell I'm doing that. If it's just the reholder fee, then I'd probably be okay with it.

This also warrants a question like..7 years down the road is a CGC 9.4 going to still be a CGC 9.4 ? Not to mention what happens if someone improperly stores the book and it gets damaged while there? You could end up with a CGC 9.4 that actually holds a 6.0 comic!

 

Brian

[Arty]

I thought about getting one of those food storage plastic shinkwrap thingies that seal food airtight. I figured I could do this to each slab, lock it airtight and extend its survival...but I never could determine if this was helpful or harmful as I've heard conflicting arguments.

Any help?

 

If you want to seal paper encapsulated in airtight vacuum, it should only be done with microchamber paper. CGC case is (nearly?) airtight so that's why they use microchamber paper placed inside slabs.

 

Reason for using microchamber paper is this:

 

 

"Based on the approach, that the inpouch environment has to be

equal to the outdoor environment during ageing studies, in our

case 24 days at 70 deg. C and 55% RH, the conclusion can be

drawn that encapsulation of paper using laminated uncoated

polyester pouch and a slight vacuum, will neither influence the

mechanical paper properties in a positive or negative way in

time. However, paper deterioration will continue and paper

acidification will even be enhanced by the paper encapsulation.

It is suggested therefore that only for deacidified papers this

accelerated acidification will not occur. Based on the

artificial ageing experiments, care has to be taken for storing

acid papers encapsulated."

 

Extract From

Ageing Behaviour Of Encapsulated Paper

By John B G A Havermans

Restaurator

 

Rest of the article can be found here .

 

I'm not sure how long that microchamber paper is effective and is CGC:s 7 year opinion based on real facts? Maybe it should be asked straight from the manufacturer ?

 

 

 

 

[ninanina]

I am thinking that if I can put a comic in a plastic bag, scotch tape the top and have the comic looking as good as the day I put it in the bag 20 years later, you should be able to get just a few more years out of an encapsulated one. Now, I am not saying the plastic bag looked pretty, but it did protect what was inside.

[PovertyRow]

The real bottom line is simply under what conditions are the books stored? CGC has only been around a few years. Bronze, Silver and Gold books have been around a LOT longer than CGC has. And they survived to get desireable CGC grades. Simple care in storage will go further than all the special techniques. Keep them cool, dark and in relatively low humidity. (Also you do not want to store them in the middle of a sulphuric acid manufacturing plant!) Do not subject them to frequent/extreme fluctuations in temperature and humidity. Use mylar with acid free and BUFFERED backing boards. The books should stay nice and fresh for many years. They DID survive decades before being encapsulated.

 

But I WOULD ask the manufacturer some pointed questions. Chances are they won't reply, or will reply with generalizations, but you never know. If phrased properly you could get an answer.

[blowout]

But I WOULD ask the manufacturer some pointed questions. Chances are they won't reply, or will reply with generalizations, but you never know. If phrased properly you could get an answer.

 

Another worrying thing about this is that CGC won't release the name of the paper manufacturer. The question was asked in the ask CGC forum and they stated that they are not able to release this information.

What are they trying to hide?

The big concern really is whether, after the 7 year period, the paper starts to break down and eat into the book itself. If this is likely to happen then CGC may have a revolt on their hands.

I am sure there are many people with hundreds if not thousands of CGC books, big bucks to get them all reholdered.

[BronzeBruce13]

Good points... I'm more concerned with a recent post that indicated a book sent in for reholdering was regraded (without instruction to do so) and subsequently arrived back lower. As I understood it.. it was not in for regrading?

 

I would like to hear more on this. I would want to know if CGC reserves the right to "correct a grade" whether they feel they were too harsh/lenient initially... or if they feel a book was damaged further within the holder... or if regrading will ONLY occur at request. I've heard of an instance where CGC accidentally damaged a book while handling it (has to happen once in a while) and graded it appropriately and compensated the owner of the book.

 

Instead of just speculating... since we don't often receive much CGC input/guidance on the boards with our questions... maybe I'll just call and ask... then report back. They are more than receptive when called.

[BronzeBruce13]

I need to review all that Arty... thanks.

 

Can I assume in a nutshell that your suggestion is that the CGC inner well is thought to be airtight (or almost) and as such it is necessary to have the MC insert to counterbalance the decay that will take place otherwise in an airtight environment that holds these materials?

 

Further, after the MC becomes inert (in 7 years) the airtight environment becomes a hazard to the book, and thus the need for a new MC insert?

 

If the slab system accelerates decay after 7 years and the "MC tune up" is mandatory... that would be be very disturbing to me. I can't imagine the effort and expense necessary to keep them preserved every 7 years... and possible uncertainty of the grades reamaining the same.

 

I guess I should call and find this all out.

[Gorgo]

One possible drawback to this process is that page quality could drop if the books haven't been stored in ideal conditions. It's gonna be a while though, as I slabbed my first batch of NM's in early 2000.

[COI]

I'm not trying to step all over CGC here or be overly cynical, but has anyone else considered that this may just be a way for them to re-new their revenue every 7 years?

 

As Poverty said, these books have survived to this point under proper storage condidions. I would guess that Slabs are more secure than mylars, so I'm sure proper storage would be sufficient.

 

But your concerns are definetly justified, especially someone in your case who strives and pays for the highest grades possible, and porbably own many 9.8+ books where even the most minute damage can knock a book down a grade.

 

All these concerns just bring the long term ramifacations and problems of CGC into blinding focus; Do we really want to pay huge amounts of money for segregations in the 9.6-10.0 arena? Bruce, I'm not directing this at you, but it's a concern I've had and think others HG buyers should have as well. Are CGC graded, or raw books just slowly deteriorating beyond our control? If so, I think I'm going to just be content with getting nice 9.4/9.6 copies of books, and not worry so much about the .2 grade differences.

[supapimp]

I'm not trying to step all over CGC here or be overly cynical, but has anyone else considered that this may just be a way for them to re-new their revenue every 7 years?

 

i thought about that a long time ago when sborock said it was highly recommended that you should change the micro chamber paper every 7 years.

[OldGuy]

"has anyone else considered that this may just be a way for them to re-new their revenue every 7 years?"

 

Would there have been another reason? This is the first time I've heard this even questioned. Of course that's why they inserted the "timebombs" into the slabs. It sure as [!@#%^&^] wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts.

[COI]

I was trying to be tactful.....but yeah, that's about what I've always chalked it up to. They're a business after all, and have to set up future revenues, especially when their current source of revenue will slowly diminish.

[OldGuy]

"I was trying to be tactful"

 

Nice try.

[BronzeBruce13]

I'm glad I called before this got out of hand... from now on I'm simply going to call over there and ask straight questions. Every time I have... I get straight answers, so I don't know why I spend so much time trying to discover answers the slow way.. I guess I like chatting with everyone here.

 

Anyway... I just spoke to Steve (for the first time) and had an informative chat about several things I was unclear on. I'll tell you this, as I mentioned to him... if it turned out that the 7 year "MC Tune-Up" was NECESSARY to prevent accelerated decay caused by the CGC designed slab environment... I would have cashed out on all but 25 or so books that I was willing to absorb that expense and risk to keep. LUCKILY, as I suspected and alluded to (wishfully) in my initial post... Steve confirmed that it is basically a recommendation IF you want to person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point the natural aging process EVEN FURTHER than a properly stored comic. Wheeew! We're talking well beyond our lifetimes as I understood it. The inner well is not 100% airtight for the record, although I did not think to ask the specifics of that.

 

So, bottom line: The CGC answer is... if you store your CGC slabs in the proper manner... Cool (without drastic temperature fluctuations), Dark and Dry Environment... even after the micro chamber paper becomes inert after 7-10 years (7 was conservative apparently) they will not decay any faster than a properly stored comic in any other traditional manner.

 

I will continue to try and research these preservation concerns further to expand my understanding of the science involved... but I will accept this explanation as CGC invested thousands in studying these preservation issues. If you think about it... it would have been insanity to create an environment for comics that would have to be maintenanced every 7 years (or at all) OR risk accelerated decay. The backlash would destroy the company in my opinion, not provide additional revenue for the tune ups... especially now that we have 2 new grading companies emerging.

 

On another note, Steve also confirmed that any book sent in for reholdering due to a damaged slab will be looked at... and if there is damage that is perceived to have occurred in relation to the damage to the slab... it can be re-evaluated and a new grade given that reflects the damage... obviously without request. This brings proper packing (which is another peeve of mine) into the forefront again. Dealing with poor packers can lead to cracked/damaged slabs.. and possibly the comic being a candidate for a downgrade. If that happened, I'd ask the seller for a refund.

[BronzeBruce13]

>> I just heard from a very reliable and trusted source that the 3rd grading company that will soon emerge will be comprised of the former head grader and president of PSA... now know as Global. I was given a few names, but since this is not something my source or I can present facts on... I'll leave it at that. One name I recognized instantly... let's see if this is accurate or not<<

[Gorgo]

Good information for the forums Bruce. Even for those of us who only pop in here for 5-10 minutes once or twice a week. Thank you.

[OldGuy]

And thus ends another CGC witch hunt. Oh well, NEXT!

[Mushroom]

Bruce........there is still an issue here about the future of CGC books. Let's say that in 7-10 years two 9.8 books come up for sale, 1 has been lovingly cared for (BronzeBruce pedigreed) and the other has been left in open sunlight and some fading has occurred to the colours (let's say enough to drag it down .2. How will the buyer know this?

 

The cgc books may become as subjective to their grade as for current raw books, which kind of defeats the purpose of CGC>