Nerd Breakdown: Hulk Vs Thanos 1 1

[Xenosmilus]

One thing that bothered me about this scene is not that Thanos beat Hulk but why didn't Hulk get angry (he looked scared) and therefore stronger?

 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/7/2019 at 11:17 AM, Xenosmilus said:

One thing that bothered me about this scene is not that Thanos beat Hulk but why didn't Hulk get angry (he looked scared) and therefore stronger?

 

 

Imagine beating the  out of everyone and everything you've ever come across for a decade. Then, imagine getting the jump on a guy, only to have him take it gracefully for a few moments before subsequently manhandling you.

Your answer lies within Guardians of the Galaxy: "Thanos is the most powerful being in the universe!" That'll scare anyone.

[Turtle]

On ‎9‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 11:17 AM, Xenosmilus said:

One thing that bothered me about this scene is not that Thanos beat Hulk but why didn't Hulk get angry (he looked scared) and therefore stronger?

 

 

Looking at the Hulk in the movies since 2008, I'm under the impression that the Hulk matures pretty close to real time, but this maturation process only happens when Hulk is in control.  In other words, if Banner is in control, the Hulk is not maturing. 

I'd say he started as a moody toddler in the 2008 movie.  Basically any time he was the Hulk, we has throwing a tantrum (and a forklift) and mostly trying to get people to leave him alone.  Banner worked to keep the Hulk under wraps, so Hulk stayed in this state for many years.  This is a similar state to what we see in Avengers and Age of Ultron.

Then he takes off as the Hulk at the end of Age of Ultron and ends up on Sakaar where he remains the Hulk for several years.  This gives the Hulk a few years to mature.  He's still prone to moody fits, but he can now verbally communicate and can more readily deal with frustration without resorting to all-out aggression.  This is the Hulk we see in Thor Ragnarok.  He's still childish, but much more composed than when we've seen him before. 

When I first saw Ragnarok, I assumed that I was watching the most formidable version of Hulk we've seen in the MCU to date.  After all, this version has had a few years of combat training and can now use strategy and tactics along with his brute force.  When I talked to my wife about it, she told me that she felt quite the opposite...that the more feral versions of Hulk seen earlier were the more dangerous ones.  Her view is that when you get training and experience, you start learning about self-preservation and defense. 

After this, I re-watched the Hulk vs. Thor fight in Thor Ragnarok.  Early on, Hulk is showing off his more tactical mind as Thor tries to mimic Black Widow as a means of calming him and reverting him to Banner.  Hulk allows Thor to get close enough to easily grab him and slam him like a ragdoll a la Loki in Avengers.  Then later, when Thor taps into his lighting powers and gets the upper hand, Hulk picks himself up and instead of rushing Thor, he's trying to size him up to figure out his next move. 

Then I watched the Hulk vs. Hulkbuster fight from Age of Ultron.  That Hulk wasn't taking the time to form any strategy or size up anything.  Every single time Tony shot him/threw him/punched him, Hulk would immediately get back on his feet and just rush down the Hulkbuster.  Any time Tony tried to restrain him, Hulk's limbs would flail wildly.  There was no real strategy outside of a relentless assault.  This Hulk didn't care about self preservation.  In that moment, he only cared about destroying the Hulkbuster and he didn't stop until he had an entire skyscraper dropped on him.  Nerdy sidenote: I still maintain that the only reason Hulk lost was due to Scarlet Witch's influence getting shaken after the massive building hit that left him vulnerable for a few moments, given Tony a chance to knock him out cold.  I doubt that Hulk would have lost if he weren't being tampered with, but that's another discussion.

Keeping all that in mind, I'm sure @theCapraAegagrus is correct.  On Sakaar, Hulk was an undefeated champion pummeling any contenders unfortunate enough to get in the arena with him.  Suddenly he gets the jump on a being that just laid waste to a ship full of Asgardians and is able to shrug off the Hulk's attacks and he starts to sense fear for the first time.  Thanos grabs Hulk's wrists and Hulk can't believe there's someone strong enough to so easily restrain him.  Before he can come to terms with it, Thanos is laying into him.  Not all that surprising in retrospect. 

 

For me, the bigger thing that bothered me is this...what the heck was Hulk doing while all the Asgardians were getting attacked?  Hulk has never been the one to bide his time.  If the Black Order starts to attack civilians and his friends, I don't see the Hulk just standing by and letting it happen.  I think the answer is they needed a setup for the "We Have A Hulk" moment, which was great, but it doesn't make a ton of sense if you think too hard about it.

Is that breakdown nerdy enough?

[theCapraAegagrus]

7 minutes ago, Turtle said:

...For me, the bigger thing that bothered me is this...what the heck was Hulk doing while all the Asgardians were getting attacked?  Hulk has never been the one to bide his time.  If the Black Order starts to attack civilians and his friends, I don't see the Hulk just standing by and letting it happen.  I think the answer is they needed a setup for the "We Have A Hulk" moment, which was great, but it doesn't make a ton of sense if you think too hard about it.

Is that breakdown nerdy enough?

I think he was KO'd by the Power Stone (which was exemplified by Thanos vs the Guardians on Titan). Loki intentionally bode his time until Hulk had awoken, hoping that his brute strength would help fight Thanos off.

That may have been conveyed in the Blu-ray commentary, or it might be logical assumption on my part. Otherwise, I would agree that that would be more bothersome than the Hulk getting scared straight for the 1st time.

[Turtle]

19 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

I think he was KO'd by the Power Stone (which was exemplified by Thanos vs the Guardians on Titan). Loki intentionally bode his time until Hulk had awoken, hoping that his brute strength would help fight Thanos off.

That may have been conveyed in the Blu-ray commentary, or it might be logical assumption on my part. Otherwise, I would agree that that would be more bothersome than the Hulk getting scared straight for the 1st time.

That's a plausible explanation.  I can accept that.

The opening to Infinity War (pickup up moments after Ragnarok ends) was great and really thrusts you into the action, but I would be intrigued to see how the siege of Thor's ship played out.  Was is just Thanos and the Black Order or did he have grunts with him? 

Additionally, I'd have liked to see Team Thanos vs. Xandar that was mentioned.  We saw in Guardians that Xandar has good technology and organization and at that point, Thanos didn't have any infinity stones.  It would have been interesting to see what would have effectively been the method by which he eradicates half of all life in his years before getting the gauntlet.

[sagekilz]

1 hour ago, Turtle said:

That's a plausible explanation.  I can accept that.

The opening to Infinity War (pickup up moments after Ragnarok ends) was great and really thrusts you into the action, but I would be intrigued to see how the siege of Thor's ship played out.  Was is just Thanos and the Black Order or did he have grunts with him? 

Additionally, I'd have liked to see Team Thanos vs. Xandar that was mentioned.  We saw in Guardians that Xandar has good technology and organization and at that point, Thanos didn't have any infinity stones.  It would have been interesting to see what would have effectively been the method by which he eradicates half of all life in his years before getting the gauntlet.

Fantastic stuff right here; there were some heavy hitters on that ship but essentially everyone was destroyed.  What happened???

[PunisherPunisherPunisher]

After the beating the Hulk got from Thanos in part 1, I was expecting Hulk to smash up everything and get his revenge in part two but no, we got professor Hulk instead

[theCapraAegagrus]

16 hours ago, Turtle said:

...Additionally, I'd have liked to see Team Thanos vs. Xandar that was mentioned.  We saw in Guardians that Xandar has good technology and organization and at that point, Thanos didn't have any infinity stones.  It would have been interesting to see what would have effectively been the method by which he eradicates half of all life in his years before getting the gauntlet.

Agreed, but the Russo Bros did mention that this part of the story was "practically meaningless". They say that with Xandar's defense depleted from Ronan/etc, and no real power outside of their limited strength in numbers, that Thanos and the Black Order simply lay waste to the Nova Corps. It would have served no purpose other than gratuitous violence and action (which IMO we had a perfect amount already in Infinity War).

[Turtle]

5 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Agreed, but the Russo Bros did mention that this part of the story was "practically meaningless". They say that with Xandar's defense depleted from Ronan/etc, and no real power outside of their limited strength in numbers, that Thanos and the Black Order simply lay waste to the Nova Corps. It would have served no purpose other than gratuitous violence and action (which IMO we had a perfect amount already in Infinity War).

I don't disagree.  It's certainly not necessary.

That said, I'd still like to see it...even in an animated form of some sort.  I'm thinking something along the lines of Revenge of the Sith.  In between episodes 2 and 3, Chancellor Palpatine was "kidnapped" by General Grievous.  For plot purposes, that's really all you needed to know when watching Revenge of the Sith.  However, they did end up animating the kidnapping mission in the Clone Wars series (the 2D one).  Same thing with the Matrix.  Leading into the events of Matrix: Reloaded, we learn that a crew was killed getting a message back to Zion that the machines were starting to dig.  Again, that's all you really need to know, but it was still entertaining to see those events transpire in The Animatrix (Final Flight of the Osirus). 

I'd certainly be down for seeing animated version of events that were talked/hinted about in the MCU:

-The battle with Odin that led to Loki's discovery/adoption

-Thanos' assault on Xandar

-Winter Soldier's missions throughout the years

-The exploits of the Hank Pym version of Ant Man

 

Just to name a few.

[Turtle]

6 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Agreed, but the Russo Bros did mention that this part of the story was "practically meaningless". They say that with Xandar's defense depleted from Ronan/etc, and no real power outside of their limited strength in numbers, that Thanos and the Black Order simply lay waste to the Nova Corps. It would have served no purpose other than gratuitous violence and action (which IMO we had a perfect amount already in Infinity War).

The Ronan attack was rough, but it happened in 2014 and Thanos' attack wasn't until 2018.  I'd have a hard time believing they'd be devastated for so long.  But you're right...for the story we are interested in, this part ultimately means very little.

I just wanted to see more of Thanos' methods.  We saw a small part of the closing phase of it in Infinity War.  The inhabitants are split into 2 groups and one group is just mowed down (the Gamora flashback).  I guess that part just left me wanting more.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Turtle

[theCapraAegagrus]

Just now, Turtle said:

I don't disagree.  It's certainly not necessary.

That said, I'd still like to see it...even in an animated form of some sort.  I'm thinking something along the lines of Revenge of the Sith.  In between episodes 2 and 3, Chancellor Palpatine was "kidnapped" by General Grievous.  For plot purposes, that's really all you needed to know when watching Revenge of the Sith.  However, they did end up animating the kidnapping mission in the Clone Wars series (the 2D one).  Same thing with the Matrix.  Leading into the events of Matrix: Reloaded, we learn that a crew was killed getting a message back to Zion that the machines were starting to dig.  Again, that's all you really need to know, but it was still entertaining to see those events transpire in The Animatrix (Final Flight of the Osirus). 

I'd certainly be down for seeing animated version of events that were talked/hinted about in the MCU:

-The battle with Odin that led to Loki's discovery/adoption

-Thanos' assault on Xandar

-Winter Soldier's missions throughout the years

-The exploits of the Hank Pym version of Ant Man

 

Just to name a few.

Didn't even know this.

I'd also like to see how Loki took the throne as King of Asgard and his exploits between that time and the events of Ragnarok (such as charging Heimdall with "negligence of duty").

The Russo Bros did do the 'right' thing IMO by keeping the beginning personal. Starting off with a big battle between Thanos and his army on Xandar would've just been too much to begin with, and kinda spoil the (IMO unnecessary - would've liked to see just the Black Order do damage) Outrider war at the end. Killing off Heimdall, then Loki, after humiliating the Hulk was perfection IMO. Such an incredible pre-title scene.

[theCapraAegagrus]

8 minutes ago, Turtle said:

The Ronan attack was rough, but it happened in 2014 and Thanos' attack wasn't until 2018.  I'd have a hard time believing they'd be devastated for so long.  But you're right...for the story we are interested in, this part ultimately means very little.

I just wanted to see more of Thanos' methods.  We saw a small part of the closing phase of it in Infinity War.  The inhabitants are split into 2 groups and one group is just mowed down (the Gamora flashback).  I guess that part just left me wanting more.

I considered this, but people and resources don't 'grow on trees'. Ronan decimated their army and reached Xandar's soil, and preventing that from happening was the Nova Corps' single task. I don't think that they recovered much in those 4 years.

Wouldn't it have been crazy if this was a 3-part finale...? I mean, you could also write-in the acquisition of the Aether on Knowhere, though I'm sure nothing as exciting as Xander, there appeared to be no life left there after Thanos was done with The Collector.

Edited September 12, 2019 by theCapraAegagrus

[Turtle]

1 minute ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Didn't even know this.

I'd also like to see how Loki took the throne as King of Asgard and his exploits between that time and the events of Ragnarok (such as charging Heimdall with "negligence of duty").

The Russo Bros did do the 'right' thing IMO by keeping the beginning personal. Starting off with a big battle between Thanos and his army on Xandar would've just been too much to begin with, and kinda spoil the (IMO unnecessary - would've liked to see just the Black Order do damage) Outrider war at the end. Killing off Heimdall, then Loki, after humiliating the Hulk was perfection IMO. Such an incredible pre-title scene.

That's another good one...Loki's temporary rule over Asgard would be cool. 

I wouldn't change the Infinity War/Endgame we got.  Both movies felt tight and well-paced, especially considering how long Endgame was.  I just want more.  Definitely a sign of a good movie.

You should definitely check out those animated bits.  The Animatrix is a series of various animated shorts relating somehow to the Matrix.  Final Flight of the Osirus and one other one (forget the name) that goes into the background of the kid who has complete faith in Neo throughout the last 2 movies (I think he's just called Kid) has the most direct ties to the movies, but there are other good ones too.  I know one goes shows how the world was when humans and robots were coexisting and how the uprising came about.  It's been a few years, so I don't know how the animation has held up.

I'm a big fan of the Clone Wars stuff though.  I thought the 3d series was excellent, but the precursor was the 2d series done by Gennedy Tartakofsky (creator of Dexter's Laboratory and done in the same animation style).  There were 2 seasons of this.  The first season was a lot of 3-5 minute shorts while season two is has longer episodes for a more complete story.  Notable events include the first meeting of Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku, Grievous' training under Dooku, the first duel between Anakin and Asajj, and the aforementioned kidnapping of Palpatine.  If you're a Star Wars fan, I'd definitely recommend them. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Turtle said:

That's another good one...Loki's temporary rule over Asgard would be cool. 

I wouldn't change the Infinity War/Endgame we got.  Both movies felt tight and well-paced, especially considering how long Endgame was.  I just want more.  Definitely a sign of a good movie.

You should definitely check out those animated bits.  The Animatrix is a series of various animated shorts relating somehow to the Matrix.  Final Flight of the Osirus and one other one (forget the name) that goes into the background of the kid who has complete faith in Neo throughout the last 2 movies (I think he's just called Kid) has the most direct ties to the movies, but there are other good ones too.  I know one goes shows how the world was when humans and robots were coexisting and how the uprising came about.  It's been a few years, so I don't know how the animation has held up.

I'm a big fan of the Clone Wars stuff though.  I thought the 3d series was excellent, but the precursor was the 2d series done by Gennedy Tartakofsky (creator of Dexter's Laboratory and done in the same animation style).  There were 2 seasons of this.  The first season was a lot of 3-5 minute shorts while season two is has longer episodes for a more complete story.  Notable events include the first meeting of Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku, Grievous' training under Dooku, the first duel between Anakin and Asajj, and the aforementioned kidnapping of Palpatine.  If you're a Star Wars fan, I'd definitely recommend them. 

That completely depends on The Rise of Skywalker.

If it isn't great, then I'm never watching anything outside of Episodes II-VII ever again.