Kirby's 4th World

[Zonker]

So, as a spin-off from the Bronze Age definitions/origins multi-thread, I thought I'd start one to dig into one of my fave Bronze Age series: the Jack Kirby so-called Fourth World series composed of New Gods, Forever People, Mr. Miracle and (yes) Jimmy Olsen.

 

OK, so they're more-or-less DOA as high-dollar collectible back issues, and yes, Jack Kirby was really missing Stan Lee's dialogue skills by now, but IMO there's still a lot to recommend here.

 

First off, why I see this series as more of a groundbreaking comics science fiction/fantasy series than straight super-heroes:

 

1. Clones. These are a tired, tired comics cliche now, but can anyone think of a significant use of cloning as a comics plot point prior to Kirby's DNA Project in Jimmy Olsen 133-138?

 

2. "Mother Box" as a precursor to the PC or the even later PDA. A portable or even hand-held computer, personalized to its owner? Remember this was 1971, the first Apple rolled out when, 1976?

 

3. I thought Mr. Miracle's circuitry embedded in his costume was pretty hokey at the time, but the MIT Media Lab is now investing a lot of research into wearable computers...

 

Jack Kirby was ahead of his time!

Z.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Hmmm...to me Kirby's Fourth World, is for the most part, is in the same vein as the Watcher, Galactus, Silver Surfer brand of cosmic type of characters. To be honest, the only issue of Forever People I'm really interested in is a HG copy of # 1 which features the first FULL appearance of one of Superman's greatest and most intelligent enemies from the planet Apaocalypse controlled by none other than Darkseid himself. (if you didn't notice I stretched that one out on purpose ). Of the Kirby 4th world titles you've mentioned, the one that interests me the most is Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson (big surprise huh), but that's only because of Superman appearances.

 

In all seriousness, I'm not attempting to belittle Jack Kirby in ANY way, he's a legend in the comic biz, a very talented creator, and from reading and listening to Stan Lee's comments, I'm sure that even he would wholeheartedly agree. I guess from my personal standpoint, most of the CHARACTERS from Kirby's 4th world are NOT all that interesting to me...but to each his own.

[fiendish]

I think kids like us who grew up with this stuff will always have a fondness for these series. New Gods #1 is one of the top 10 covers of the 70s.

 

When I was collecting in the 70s, I didn't even know about the Jimmy Olsen stories. When I went back to the hobby in the early 90s, I grabbed up the entire Kirby Jimmy Olsen run. I saw the Don Rickles issue and thought I was hallucinating.

 

Narratively, yes, perhaps the Fourth World story is weaker compared to Demon or Kamandi. What's telling is that Darkseid is the most interesting and enduring character from the entire series. (I still don't know who Orion is or what his powers are.)

 

 

I thought Kamandi was Jack's best run in this period because the picaresque structure of the story (lost boy adrift and struggling to survive in weird future) played to Jack's imaginative strengths, but kept him from having to define a large supporting cast.

 

 

[aardvark88]

As a little kid, I enjoyed Mr Miracle the most b/c he reminded me of gr8 magicians like Houdini (escape artist).

[mcd-migration]

As a little kid, I enjoyed Mr Miracle the most b/c he reminded me of gr8 magicians like Houdini (escape artist).

 

I started collecting Mr. Miracle after hearing the rumors that he was based on Steranko's escape artist days. I was a little let down that we never got a Steranko cover or story. Enjoyed all the 4th world books, I think when your a kid & your seeing that stuff for the 1st time it's just mind blowing. Loved Simonson's recent Orion series, thought it was his best stuff since the late 70's.

[Zonker]

I saw the Don Rickles issue and thought I was hallucinating

 

, same here! Jack definitely had some occasional clunkers. That's what makes it bearable that Infantino pulled the plug on the series-- Jack may not have had another "The Pact" or "Himon" in him; it might have been more stories like the Deadman/Forever People cross over, or the further adventures of Goody Rickles.

 

As it is, part of the appeal of the series is its premature ending, and the sense of what could have been...

 

(I still don't know who Orion is or what his powers are.)

 

Well, if you literally don't know who Orion is, I'll not spoil it for you. His power though is the "Astro-Force" and I agree Jack never defined it very well. But that's part of what makes this a non-traditional super hero series: he's a god, maybe we're not supposed to really understand.

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

 

 

[Zonker]

OK, here is part 2 of the thread.

 

Kirby's series ran basically in 1971-1972; George Lucas' Star Wars hit in the summer of 1977. Coincidence? Maybe. Drawing from the same source material? Almost certainly-- there are only so many variations on the Oedipal myth. Yet still the similarities are interesting:

 

 

Kirby's Fourth World........................................................Lucas' Star Wars

 

Darkseid's visual appearance......................................Darth Vader

The Source as the mystical spiritual energy............The Force (be with you)

Orion's relationship to Darkseid...................................Luke <=> Darth Vader

Highfather as surrogate father figure........................Obi-Wan Kenobe

 

Any other examples?

Z.

 

 

[ArAich]

a la Mister Miracle

 

Barda ==== Princess Leah...

 

The Little Dude =====R2D2

[joe_collector]

Nah, Lucas didn't get the idea for Star Wars from Kirby, as there are far more obvious (and admitted) influences for him to scam from. Star Wars is built on the tried-and-true Hero Myth, along with some Samurai influences and Oriental fables.

 

Lucas definitely scammed the idea (who doesn't anymore) but I can't see any real similarities between SW and Kirby's work. You're simply looking at it visually, when the stories (the important part) have virtually nothing in common.

 

Go ask someone versed in Japanese culture to tell you any story about a farmboy who is joined by an old warrior as they travel to rescue a kidnapped princess, while saving the land from a dark evil.

 

You should be there about 3 months listening to the various incarnations.

[Darthdiesel]

any story about a farmboy who is joined by an old warrior as they travel to rescue a kidnapped princess, while saving the land from a dark evil.

 

Dragonball Z???

[Zonker]

Of the Kirby 4th world titles you've mentioned, the one that interests me the most is Superman's Pal Jimmy Olson (big surprise huh), but that's only because of Superman appearances.

 

MOS, have you seen JO #133-138? It has lost some of its impact now that the post-Bryne continuity has retold this storyline, but this was ground-breaking stuff, IMHO. But I'll agree with you re:Kirby's characters. Get these issues for the plots and Kirby's overflowing ideas that had been bottled up for the last several years of working with Stan Lee.

 

In the introduction to his TPB reprint of the Thor "Beta Ray Bill" storyline, Walt Simonson cites JO #133-138 as an example of the type of impact he was trying to make when he took over Thor.

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

 

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

MOS, have you seen JO #133-138?

 

Nope, not yet anyway... Not too long ago, I placed bids on a few Very Fine issues from the 133-138 run, and I am 100% certain a Very Fine copy of issue 134 was included in one of the auctions (surprise, surprise ), but I ended up loosing (just barely too ), and havn't looked for them ever since.

 

It has lost some of its impact now that the post-Bryne continuity has retold this storyline, but this was ground-breaking stuff, IMHO.

 

I guess this means I'll have to look for high grade copies and reading copies of issues 133 - 138. Actually I wouldn't mind stumbling upon a nice high grade run of 100 - 163, but I would have to find the right person to buy them from, and that seems to take lots of time.

 

If you don't mind my asking, why do say these books were ground-breaking? I just want to know your reasoning, thats all.

 

Get these issues for the plots and Kirby's overflowing ideas that had been bottled up for the last several years of working with Stan Lee.

 

Maybe I've become another brainwashed Marvel zombie, but I never really appreciated the genius that is Stan Lee until I carefully listened to his interviews with Kevin Smith on the Stan Lee's Mutants, Monsters & Marvels DVD Maybe up until that time I had not given it much thought, but the imagination, innovation, and motivation of Stan Lee had to be an inspiring influence on Jack Kirby's already talented life. In the interview, Stan say's the Jack Kirby would have been a great movie director for his ability to tell stories with pictures. However not to downplay Stan Lee, but we both know he already had an audience that DC established, and the Super-Hero genre with Heroes that possed amazing powers that could perform unbelievable feats was hardly new or ground-breaking, but Stan Lee created a new "breed" of Super-Heroes that were quite different in their own unique ways. Have you ever heard of a "Gamma Bomb"? Neither have I, but Stan made a few "true believers" out of the kids back in the day. Another characteristic about Stan Lee that caught on like wildfire (and grew on others) was his creation of Marvel "lingo". You know, words like "nuff said". *sigh* If more people only had half the imagination, and innovation of Stan Lee...Oh yeah, we were talking about Jack Kirby! To be honest with you, I don't know a great deal about Jack Kirby execept that he enjoyed a good cigar, and could put words into pictures better than many people can put words out of their mouth.

 

In the introduction to his TPB reprint of the Thor "Beta Ray Bill" storyline, Walt Simonson cites JO #133-138 as an example of the type of impact he was trying to make when he took over Thor.

 

You know, maybe I'm weird, but I kind of enjoy reading/hearing about the inspirations of talented/famous people. This also shows the difficulty of creating something that is truely "original". Most creators draw from other sources to come up with a new twist on an old idea. Even so, I am still able to appreciate the refined and improved versions of old ideas.

 

 

 

 

[Zonker]

If you don't mind my asking, why do say these books were ground-breaking? I just want to know your reasoning, thats all.

 

Well, I could hedge and say that since Jack Kirby chose JO 133-138 as the vehicle to introduce his Fourth World series, it was JO that "broke the ground" for the entire series. But instead, I'll directly say that the DNA Project story is the first example I can recall of the cloning and manipulation of human DNA as a major plot point in comics. As I mentioned at the top of the thread, cloning has become such a hackneyed cliche in comics that it is hard to now revisit this storyline with the same attitude as readers might have had in 1970. But I believe JO 133-138 can be considered ground-breaking for no other reason than this look ahead to bio-engineering.

 

I'm on a bit shakier ground in saying that this same series was one of the earlier comics attempts at taking seriously the potential of the flower-power peace&love Woodstock generation. Jack re-imagined the best of the hippies (the "Hairies") as the next bio-engineered evolutionary step. Now Jack frequently had a tin ear for dialogue, and he was a creature of the 1940s, not the 60s, but I still believe his sincere attempt is worth noting.

 

Indeed one of the most interesting ways to read the Fourth World series is as an allegory of the Vietnam era. You have the warriors fighting it out in New Gods, and the Forever People pressing the All You Need is Love philosophy as far as possible. Of course, Jack as a WWII combat soldier firmly rejects pacifism in the face of evil, but check out New Gods #6 ("Glory Boat") as a sincere wrestling with the issue.

 

Cheers,

Z.

[Mister_Comics]

Mister Miracle #3 is a favorite of mine. Great cover. Pretty good story.

[Zonker]

Yes, Mr. Miracle #3 is a high point of the early run (the 2nd part in #4 was a bit of a letdown, though).

 

Other high points:

New Gods #7 "The Pact"

New Gods #6 "Glory Boat"

Mr. Miracle #7-8 "The Apokolips Trap"

Mr. Miracle #9 "Himon"

Forever People #3 (cannot remember title)

Jimmy Olsen #133-138 (for reasons expressed above in this thread)

Jimmy Olsen #147 (A Superman in Super-Town)

 

Cheers,

Z.

[mcd-migration]

Yes, Mr. Miracle #3 is a high point of the early run (the 2nd part in #4 was a bit of a letdown, though).

 

How in the world does Overstreet not make a notation of Big Barda's 1st appearance in #4, but then notes that #15 is the 1st appearance of Shilo Norman? Am I missing the importance of Shilo, or overrating Big Barda's importance? That's an undiscovered key darn it!!

[Zonker]

Agreed re: Shilo Norman vs. Barda!

 

My very first comicon in the late 70s I tried to cherry-pick some Kirby 4th world books, especially the origin issues. Managed to correctly pick up New Gods #7, but wound up with Mr. M #15 because of the cover blurb: "Here it is-- The origin issue of the newest young super-hero in comics," speaking of course of Shilo Norman not Scott Free.

 

Mr. M #15 is ok for latter-day Kirby, but is miles inferior to the real origin issue #9.

 

Overstreet no doubt is keying off the same cover information. ! Bob probably hasn't actually opened a comic since 1954!

 

Z.

[Zonker]

DC is TPBing JO 133-141, so everybody can see what I've been ranting about.

 

(Note to Fiendish, I kinda wish they'd have cut it off at #138 and lowered the price, 'cause now I know I'll be posting here in July trying to defend Kirby's vision of Goody Rickles. )

 

Cheers,

Z.

[fiendish]

I wonder if DC has to cut Don in on the TPB royalties.

 

I wonder if Don's people even remember he was in those issues.

 

Which was weirder: Don's appearance in Kirby's "Jimmy Olsen" or Scorsese's "Casino?"

[Zonker]

DC is TPBing JO 133-141, so everybody can see what I've been ranting about.

 

(Note to Fiendish, I kinda wish they'd have cut it off at #138 and lowered the price, 'cause now I know I'll be posting here in July trying to defend Kirby's vision of Goody Rickles. )

 

Cheers,

Z.

 

Mark Evanier has a nice long intro to this TPB where he explains the Don Rickles thing was a planned walk-on (in which Rickles would lob some of his patented insults Superman's way) that got way out of hand.

 

But I gotta agree with Mark Evanier and Scott Shaw: "Don't Ask-- Just Buy It" is the all-time great cover blurb! That alone should have been enough to make Stan Lee envious if he wasn't already!