Roy Thomas 1981 Interview: Mad at Marvel! 1 1

[Bronty]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Poor Stan is getting a lot of heat in these threads.
@Logan510

I only read 1/3 of this but the Stan/Jack part That the interview begins with seemed totally on point to me. 

[kav]

2 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I only read 1/3 of this but the Stan/Jack part That the interview begins with seemed totally on point to me. 

Kirby said that the only thing Stan wrote is the credits in one interview.  this is patent nonsense.

[Prince Namor]

47 minutes ago, RANDOM ACTS said:

Weird that under Jim Shooter Marvel became a powerhouse and their comics were on time, than Shooter created Valiant. What did Roy Thomas do? Adapt some Robert E. Howard Conan comic books. 

I guess it depends on perspective.

Marvel was already the #1 publisher when Shooter took over, for almost 10 years. Most of that period before Shooter, we call the early days of the Bronze Age and a great deal of that was run by Roy Thomas. Under Roy we got his and Gil Kane's Warlock, the New Uncanny X-Men (including Phoenix), Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock, Starlin and then Zeck's Master of Kung Fu, Man-Thing, Wolverine, Ghost Rider, Ultron, Luke Cage, the Kree-Skrull War, the Cat, Tigra and Ms. Marvel, Nova, the Curtis Magazines and more...

Yeah, I'm no fan of his Amazing Spider-man run, but he did co-create Morbius too...

Roy Thomas was an artists' editor. He celebrated creativity.

Shooter on the other hand rejected the idea of individual creativity, by placing the importance on timely production and assembly line product. He alienated legendary talent and pushed them out. Al Milgrom was his workhorse. He takes credit for Miller (who eventually rejected him and left), Bryne (who was already AT Marvel) and Simonson (who was already ON Thor), but he also brought us Dazzler (ugh), NFL SuperPro (duh), and the most grotesque fan boy drivel ever created: Secret Wars. 

Oh and I almost forgot: the 'New Universe'. Or at least I tried to forget.

Shooter destroyed the newsstand model by helping to usher in the direct market, slowly eliminating the new readers that had built the readership over the years (we're still feeling the effects of that today). He fought Kirby on his artwork and refused the idea of sales incentives for creators and residuals and then tried to take credit for pushing for those things after DC already led the way with it. 

He may, quite possibly be, the most disliked 'pro' in the history of comics. 

I have my issues with Roy Thomas, but he was a quality writer, and a quality editor... Jim Shooter was a corporate goon, a gloryhound and big fat liar.

[theCapraAegagrus]

[kav]

8 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

he was a quality writer

[Senormac]

from the interwebs 

[kav]

Just now, RANDOM ACTS said:

Damn, if I could follow and adapt George Lucas and Robert E. Howard in comic books I would win a pulitzer prize! Don't get me wrong, but man he had a good life!

I've adapted books to comics.  Pretty simple stuff.  

[Senormac]

5 minutes ago, RANDOM ACTS said:

2 handsome dudes that loved comic books.  

Maybe.  I think it was business, and they were businessmen. 

Roy seemed to be more of a hippy type

[Prince Namor]

Interesting, as I’m not sure I ever read about Roy discussing it like this again.  
 

He’s saying Stan and Jack both advanced each other’s careers - Stan had a better understanding of that than Jack - Stan understood that he HAD to have that talent to work with to succeed - but Jack, who never read the finished comics anyway, always worked from a creative production stand point. 
 

Which is true. Stan’s success was due to working with Kirby and Ditko (probably 90+% of his Silver Age output), but being able to promote that so effectively and get the most out it (especially from Kirby) that it became the most successful thing that any of the three ever did. 
 

Ultimately... Stan got the best end of the deal, despite the fact that none of it would’ve ever happened without the other two. As I’ve often said - the Marvel Universe as we know it, never would’ve been as successful, or as celebrated without Stan Lee - but it never would’ve existed without Kirby and Ditko. 
 

THIS is the battle between art and commerce. Guys like Lee and Shooter, simply sell you a product. And they do it so well you think they’re the reason behind it. But the truth is, the real creative force is what will always drive it. And when it gets thin - when those creators leave and lesser talent takes that ‘product’ and tries to sell it... it just doesn’t hold up.  
 

A few years after Shooter left, Marvel did it again - built up a stable of new young talent - McFarlane, Lee, Leifeld - and then assumed they didn’t need them... it’s a wash, rinse and repeat process and it isn’t making sales any better throughout the years... 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Stan Lee was a wordsmith, though.

Writing is art, people.

[Bronty]

51 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Interesting, as I’m not sure I ever read about Roy discussing it like this again.  
 

He’s saying Stan and Jack both advanced each other’s careers - Stan had a better understanding of that than Jack - Stan understood that he HAD to have that talent to work with to succeed - but Jack, who never read the finished comics anyway, always worked from a creative production stand point. 
 

Which is true. Stan’s success was due to working with Kirby and Ditko (probably 90+% of his Silver Age output), but being able to promote that so effectively and get the most out it (especially from Kirby) that it became the most successful thing that any of the three ever did. 
 

Ultimately... Stan got the best end of the deal, despite the fact that none of it would’ve ever happened without the other two. As I’ve often said - the Marvel Universe as we know it, never would’ve been as successful, or as celebrated without Stan Lee - but it never would’ve existed without Kirby and Ditko. 
 

THIS is the battle between art and commerce. Guys like Lee and Shooter, simply sell you a product. And they do it so well you think they’re the reason behind it. But the truth is, the real creative force is what will always drive it. And when it gets thin - when those creators leave and lesser talent takes that ‘product’ and tries to sell it... it just doesn’t hold up.  
 

A few years after Shooter left, Marvel did it again - built up a stable of new young talent - McFarlane, Lee, Leifeld - and then assumed they didn’t need them... it’s a wash, rinse and repeat process and it isn’t making sales any better throughout the years... 

Even when you try to be even handed it doesn’t quite get there 😂 

Do you know how many interesting artists can’t function without structure in place to focus their efforts?   
 

one of my favorite illustrators, I won’t mention his name, but despite being supremely talented, pretty much everything in life he touches turns to poop because the creative side is the only side he’s any good at.   Not sure he can tie his shoelaces without help and there’s no question his life suffers because of it.   It’s a mistake to shortchange the amount of work that goes into the business end, and the value of that work when it’s done well.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Bronty

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, RANDOM ACTS said:

Stan Lee was a genius. He believed in comic books. He defended comic books. I see comic books going down now that Stan Lee won't be their to defend us.

I don't know what F your avatar is, but, I kinda like it.

[thunsicker]

I personally would take anything said by a person about a workplace or the people working there immediately after he was fired/quit a job with a grain of salt.

Edited March 10, 2020 by thunsicker

[500Club]

25 minutes ago, Bronty said:

Even when you try to be even handed it doesn’t quite get there 😂 

Do you know how many interesting artists can’t function without structure in place to focus their efforts?   
 

one of my favorite illustrators, I won’t mention his name, but despite being supremely talented, pretty much everything in life he touches turns to poop because the creative side is the only side he’s any good at.   Not sure he can tie his shoelaces without help and there’s no question his life suffers because of it.   It’s a mistake to shortchange the amount of work that goes into the business end, and the value of that work when it’s done well.

And that's where Shooter came in.

Interestingly, I agree with EVERY point made about Shooter in this thread; the positive and the negative.  He was an organizational genius, and took Marvel to new heights in the 80's.  He also had a monstrous ego, and was very gifted at alienating creators.  As a fan, I loved Shooter - he oversaw a period of great creativity within Marvel, but I certainly understand what people under him didn't like.

[Prince Namor]

45 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

I personally would take anything said by a person about a workplace or the people working there immediately after he was fired/quit a job with a grain of salt.

It wasn’t immediately. Roy Thomas had been gone for a few months when he did this interview. If you read it - he isn’t angry - he’s very careful and deliberate in exactly what he wants to say. 

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, Senormac said:

3 hours ago, RANDOM ACTS said:

2 handsome dudes that loved comic books.  

Maybe.  I think it was business, and they were businessmen. 

Roy seemed to be more of a hippy type

So, I guess you are sayimng that Lee and Shooter were much more on the business side, while Thomas, Kirby, and Ditko were much more on the creative side. 

Similar to Microsoft in terms of Bill Gates and Paul Allen, or with Apple in terms of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.  

It's seems rather rare that you can find the combination of both parts in the same one person, although I guess Mark Zukerberg with Facebook might be the closest. 

[Prince Namor]

It’s interesting that Roy very specifically mentions Challengers of the Unknown when speaking of the creation of the Fantastic Four - something Lee NEVER did. 
 

Almost like he was purposely trolling. 

[Prince Namor]

[Ken Aldred]

I like Thomas' Avengers run; Ultron, Vision, Squadron Sinister / Supreme, The Kree-Skrull War, but not so much his X-Men run, though elevated towards the end by Neal Adams' art.

One of the friendliest comic book creators I've ever met in person, and a fan of British TV soap opera.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Ken Aldred

[Jeffro.]

3 hours ago, RANDOM ACTS said:

Stan Lee and Jim Shooter were both creative. Some of the best stories I ever read were written by them.

Let`s face it true believers. Marvel has gone done since the Stan Lee and Jim Shooter  years.

A JIM SHOOTER masterpiece.

Ah, a true comic connoisseur.