So are we all going to pretend...

[grider67]

Collector, most definately a collector who started in 1973 and still collecting to this day.

 

Through 2 girlfriends, an ex-wife, and multiple dates...

 

And I still have my collection!

 

Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jbud73]

I don't want to substitute pressed.

 

Trimming is trimming. It involves removing part of the book.

 

CT is CT. It involves adding foreign material to the cover of the book.

 

Pressing a book that doesn't then go back to it's unpressed state later on isn't a problem to me. Those GA books are different stock and probably do get permanently formed into a different shape. I can understand not wanting to buy a BA book in 9.6 that's been pressed, but a GA book in mid grade pressed in the 1980's? I could care less.

 

Would you go back in time and get Edgar Church to store his books in 1 foot high piles rather than 8 foot high piles, so as to stop artificially imporving them from their natural state?

 

 

I havent read the rest of this thread but YET AGAIN I NEED TO POINT OUT THE UTTER FALLACY OF THIS ANALOGY.

 

I know its not for the last time, but here again is the difference.

 

1. The Church method of storage resulted in a high degree off preservation for the comic books in his collection. However, the Church's method of storing his books didn't press out defects BECAUSE THE DEFECTS WERE NEVER THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

2. NDP is the direct manipulation or alteration of a comic book to PRESS OUT DEFECTS THAT HAVE OCCURED FROM MISHANDLING, POOR STORAGE ETC.

 

So to recap. CHURCH BOOKS NEVER HAD DEFECTS TO PRESS OUT - NDP BOOKS DID HAVE DEFECTS THAT WERE REMOVED.

 

[COI]

Owning a 9.6 over a 9.4 is about EGO

Andrew, this is not always true, and I'm sick and tired of people trotting out this old chestnut and making a blanket judgment about an entire category of collectors. Enough with the label whore insinuations already! (you didn't use the term expressly, but it seems to be a common thread underlying a lot of similar posts on these boards). I would be happy to pit my collecting and grading skills against anyone on these boards anytime.

 

I like perfect books, okay? I like them to be as perfect as they can be. People may not believe it's possible, but I believe that there are differences between a 9.4 and 9.6 and 9.8 book, and I believe that I can discern such differences. Do I always agree with CGC? No. Nor is there any dealer that I've ever agreed with 100% of the time. But I agree with enough of CGC's grades that in most cases, I believe that a book graded 9.8 by CGC is better than a book graded 9.6 by them, and so on. The census has helped somewhat by helping me identify if a better book might exist, which I can then target. Perhaps the 9.8 that's out there might be better than my 9.6 or 9.4 copy. Perhaps not, but more likely it is.

 

Would I be a more "pure" collector if I weren't so obsessed with perfection? Maybe. But maybe not. Isn't part of the essence of collecting the thrill of the hunt? Collecting mid-grade SAs would pose little challenge to me (unless I went after esoterica like romance and humor books, but I have no interest in them), so what would be the fun in it?

 

Finally, as to the whole ego thing. Is it a factor? Of course. But is it all about ego? Not as much for a lot of HG collectors as you might think. Some of it is competition, perhaps you could call that ego. But a lot of the time, it's just plain old obsession. These people would behave the same way even if they didn't have anyone to measure themselves against or anyone to show off their books to.

 

Tim, you once stated to me that, if the highest existing copy of a book you were chasing was an 8.0, you wouldn't buy that book because it dosen't fit your 9.4+ criteria. So, you're collecting perfection, not the books themselves. And that's fine, to each his own, and all that. You're talking to a guy who also LOVES high grade. I've owned, and still own, SA and BA books in 9.4-9.8. I was really into hunting those grades for the last 2-4 years, and to this very minute I'm still tempted by them. However, due to inconsistencies on CGC's part in terms of grading, resto check, etc......I no longer feel the multiples between grades is justified, And the fact that people are buying 9.8's/9.6's that may be inferior to existing 9.6/9.4 copies(due to inconsistency.......we've all seen it), or worse, may be restored in some way, spells trouble to me.

 

As for ego......we all have it, and we all indulge it in different ways. But you can't tell me that you didn't used to get a kick posting your killer DC's here and watching your fellow board members drool. Yeah, yeah, that's not the ONLY reason you collect those kinds of books, but I'm sure it helped encourage you just a teensy, tiny bit. I promise not to make sweeping generalizations again, but you can't tell me ego dosen't play a fairly significant role in this hobby. Just look back at Tom Brulato's first(and last!) few posts on this board, and tell me he isn't just a *little* arrogant about his collection.

[jbud73]

It's an interesting gauge of how little suspected pressing is affecting the bids on these books.

Perhaps it's because there are so few people who are even aware enough to know they should suspect pressing? We will never know if pressing impacts the price of a book until someone sells a blue label book with full disclosure that it has been pressed.

 

The fact is all of the discussions, both pro and con, about the impact of pressing on prices are just speculation because there is actually no empirical data. As far as I know, the existence of pressing has never been fully and clearly disclosed by any seller in the sale of a 9.4 or better blue label book. Suspicions are not enough, because some people may reasonably choose to disregard those suspicions while others might not even be aware of the suspicions.

 

I'd love to see the two following types of auctions of 9.4 or better blue label books, where the seller clearly discloses the following items. Only then would there be any empirical basis for either camp's positions:

 

1. The book has been subjected to non-disassembled pressing; and

 

2. The book was previously graded X, and was resubmitted to CGC and received a "X + .2" upgrade (I'd like to see this where the book was upgraded because of pressing or other improvements, and also where no work was done, the book was just upgraded because CGC graded it differently).

 

Obviously, I'm not holding my breath.

 

Tim think about the FF 3 - CGC didnt catch the staple replacement, actually I'm a little foggy on that one. It seemed like Steve said the reason the book was downgraded was because of wear around the staples, but they didn't catch that it was because the staples were removed and replaced

 

So if they can't catch that then I am beginning to believe that they have no hope in hades of catching NDP, or resubs that have swayed in grade.

 

You know the more I think about it the more I am starting to think about Bob Storms comments with respect to the the amount of slabbing being so emmense as to lessen the quality of service to staggering degrees.

 

I really think that with all the moderns, cracking and resubbing etc etc going on - the quality control at CGC right now is not so good. Thats great for the individuals trying to sneak one past them - as we have recently seen there have been a few successful candidates AND THATS ONLY THE ONE WE KNOW ABOUT. But what does that mean for collectors who purchase the slabs??

 

I'm curious what ppl think of the quality of the CGC product circa 2005 are you really getting what you pay for, or, in an effort to keep up with a saturation of demand in relation to staffing has CGC become suceptible unacceptable levels of quality control?

[BassGMan]

I no longer feel the multiples between grades is justified, And the fact that people are buying 9.8's/9.6's that may be inferior to existing 9.6/9.4 copies(due to inconsistency.......we've all seen it), or worse, may be restored in some way, spells trouble to me.

 

 

These are my sentiments exactly. I just don't see the multiples as being justified. Sure, a 9.6 (on average) should sell more more than a 9.4 (on average) and etc. But the multiples applied to such minor, and sometimes invisible differences (due to grading inconsistencies) IMO is ridiculous. Take a look at the FMV applied to mid-grade books, say 8.0/8.5/9.0 or 4.0/4.5/5.0. I realize that there should be a larger spread between the high grades that are one or two points apart, but from 2X-10X?

[jbud73]

Fact is, the reason you won't see an overnight shift in the market is simple; DENIAL. Too many collectors are FAR too heavily invested, both financially and emotionally, to even acknowledge the fact that this hobby is on very unstable ground. And if they're so far away from a basic acceptance of the current problems in the hobby, do you really expect them to alter their buying habits?

 

On what basis do you claim that anything in the quoted paragraph is a fact? What evidence do you have?

 

The state of the market is all about perception. Some may believe that pressed books make the market unstable, but that's only true if enough people spending significant $$ perceive that to be the case.

 

Everything in life is about perception. And it's my perception that this hobby is in trouble. Fact is, none of us on either side of this discussion can speak entirely in hard FACTS. Do I know for a fact what percentage of top dollar books have been fooled with in some way? Nope. Do you? I saw that FF #3 on Bob's site before that thread was posted, and remember thinking it was a nice book. Did I know that the book was restored? Nope. Did you? So, dosen't that make you question how many restored books may be on the markeplace?

 

And that's the problem. So CGC made a mistake on this book......someone got a restored book past them(intentionally, or not). And this is not just any book, but a high grade copy of a very scarce and expensive key. One would think that key books of this magnitude would be handled very carefully, and scutinized very closely, considering the money involved. So I don't know what's worse; that CGC did inspect the book to the best of their ability, and STILL found nothing.......or that they're slipping, and not giving the books the attention they deserve. Or, is there an even more disturbing possibility that this book was given a pass because of the submitter? I realize the latter is inflammatory, and I have no basis of fact for any of it, but you can't deny that one of these 3 things has to be true. And since CGC can, and probably did make such a glaring error on such a huge book, how can any logical person feel comfortable paying HUGE multiples from one grade increment to another when books like the FF #3 are clearly able to breach CGC? If that FF #3 was bought before any of this came to light, there would be an unfortunate collector unknowingly in possession of a restored book.

 

So, you want FACTS? I can't give you anything new. But with so much money in graded books, you must realize that there were people trying to beat the CGC system from day one, and now it's becoming apparent that it is indeed possible to do so. Sure, I don't have any facts that I can present to you on how many books out there have been tampered with, but you can't present any facts to me to dispute any of this either. Some of you may be content to use this lack of information as a blind fold......a way to justify what you've got invested, and what you plan on investing in this hobby. Personally, I'll use this lack of information as a warning sign NOT to get deeply invested in this hobby. And I'm not going to wait to follow the lead of a bunch of "high rollers" dumping their books on the market, any more than I would follow a blind man across the street.

 

Andrew that is such a great post and kind of illustrates my feelings recently.

 

1. I love comics, I appreciate them on an artistic, historically significant and pure fan based level.

 

2. I'm a single professional who has and can dispose thousands of dollars a year on them. Definitely NOT a BSD, but if I wanted a nice book I'd spend multiples of OS on it and be happy.

 

3. I have stopped doing so - I can't explain why I've stopped, but a la the matrix, its like a splinter in my mind. Something is not right and I have stopped bidding huge multiples on books for .2 increments. Others havent, thats their perogative, I just can't bring myself to do it anymore. With the knowledge I now posses that little voice in the back of my head that used to say BUY BUY, now says STEER CLEAR.

 

Its funny but the majority of my purchases are now $50-200 Raw Books. I feel almost more comfortable with that purchase. Anymore that that and I wonder, why isnt it in a slab? And then I wonder, if its in a slab what was done to it before encapsulation?

[delekkerste]

I havent read the rest of this thread but YET AGAIN I NEED TO POINT OUT THE UTTER FALLACY OF THIS ANALOGY.

 

I know its not for the last time, but here again is the difference.

 

1. The Church method of storage resulted in a high degree off preservation for the comic books in his collection. However, the Church's method of storing his books didn't press out defects BECAUSE THE DEFECTS WERE NEVER THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

2. NDP is the direct manipulation or alteration of a comic book to PRESS OUT DEFECTS THAT HAVE OCCURED FROM MISHANDLING, POOR STORAGE ETC.

 

So to recap. CHURCH BOOKS NEVER HAD DEFECTS TO PRESS OUT - NDP BOOKS DID HAVE DEFECTS THAT WERE REMOVED.

 

 

[BassGMan]

 

Its funny but the majority of my purchases are now $50-200 Raw Books. I feel almost more comfortable with that purchase. Anymore that that and I wonder, why isnt it in a slab? And then I wonder, if its in a slab what was done to it before encapsulation?

 

That makes me wonder, the way you say you feel more comfortable with raw now. What are the odds that you are more likely to buy a pressed book in a slab (these days) than raw? I would imagine that most people who press their books do so with the intention of getting a higher CGC grade, but press to sell raw? Of course they USED to, but nowadays?

[joe_collector]

So to recap. CHURCH BOOKS NEVER HAD DEFECTS TO PRESS OUT - NDP BOOKS DID HAVE DEFECTS THAT WERE REMOVED.

 

Not to mention that Church would have had to stack his books TO THE MOON to get the same psi as a common book press.

[awe4one]

That makes me wonder, the way you say you feel more comfortable with raw now. What are the odds that you are more likely to buy a pressed book in a slab (these days) than raw? I would imagine that most people who press their books do so with the intention of getting a higher CGC grade, but press to sell raw? Of course they USED to, but nowadays?

 

This was covered extensively in the pressing debates earlier this year...

 

Jim

[BassGMan]

That makes me wonder, the way you say you feel more comfortable with raw now. What are the odds that you are more likely to buy a pressed book in a slab (these days) than raw? I would imagine that most people who press their books do so with the intention of getting a higher CGC grade, but press to sell raw? Of course they USED to, but nowadays?

 

This was covered extensively in the pressing debates earlier this year...

 

Jim

 

Oh, sorry, I missed it. Those threads are often so long that I just skim rather quickly.

[jbud73]

 

Its funny but the majority of my purchases are now $50-200 Raw Books. I feel almost more comfortable with that purchase. Anymore that that and I wonder, why isnt it in a slab? And then I wonder, if its in a slab what was done to it before encapsulation?

 

That makes me wonder, the way you say you feel more comfortable with raw now. What are the odds that you are more likely to buy a pressed book in a slab (these days) than raw? I would imagine that most people who press their books do so with the intention of getting a higher CGC grade, but press to sell raw? Of course they USED to, but nowadays?

 

Well I'm not saying that I think CGC is a worthless entity before sfilosa comes in here and cues up his "we are better off now that pre CGC on HG comics." Its not even specifically about pressing either. It just comes down to this - with what I know about what is and is not possible in a CGC blue label slab, I just do not feel justified in the multiple you have to pay at the 9.4 end of the spectrum to get a BA or SA book. It just doesnt compute for me anymore. But that's just my personal opinion, I'm a long term collector who rarely sells their best books.

 

Its not a pure market or economic driven thing either. I mean if I viewed comics as a commodity and felt that the market was in a Bull bubble (which I do) then my best books would all be in Sarasota next week and on the market a few months after that. I'm keeping my books, but I havent added a HG slab in excess of $1000 in almost a year.

[Red Hook]

I hear you. My favorite purchases of 2005, were the 8.0 and 8.5 Mystery in Space books from Harry, and the 8.0 Green River ASM Spidey I got for $175.

[BassGMan]

I hear you. My favorite purchases of 2005, were the 8.0 and 8.5 Mystery in Space books from Harry, and the 8.0 Green River ASM Spidey I got for $175.

 

Harry is a presser.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding, wouldn't want to start any rumors.

[Red Hook]

Damn you! DAMN YOU TO HELL, BLASPHEMER!!!!!

[jbud73]

maybe I will restate it as I might have glossed over what I was truly interested in.

 

Given the Batman 11 incident, the FF 3, 10 maybe that whole batch of submissions incident. What we know about high profile books such as the Church books Arty tracks and the Green Rivers that Red tracks, what are the current feelings of board members about the relative state of the CGC product in terms of quality, consistency and accuracy at this time. ??

 

I understand the there is a bias in my preface to the question, however I think the market started from and still maintains a concrete perception of the consistency and reliabilty of the CGC product, given the information we have gleaned in the past couple of years I was curious as to the individual perceptions around here.

[jokersrevenge]

no one's perfect but it's the best we have. I couldn't detect restoration the way they do that's for sure..