"Rarest GA DC Publication" (?) Roll Call 4 4

[sfcityduck]

5 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

There are two questions most long time collectors on this forum will ask:

1) Is it rare?

2) Does Bob Beerbohm consider this book to be unique and of indisputable importance in the history of comic books?

I agree rare does not always mean desirable, although there are a number of collectors who would rather pursue rare comics over comics anyone can own if they can pay the price.  As for Bob Beerbohm, he never pushed this book, instead only learning of its history on these boards.  After reading a thread by Zaid or Levine, he posted his copy.  It is really Levine, Zaid and ECcomics who elevated the profile of this book on this site. I am not shocked Bangzoom has one.

[David Buck]

6 hours ago, OtherEric said:

Given the general quality of that selection, I guess I should consider myself lucky that I have any of them.

What is the book to the right of the Defense book?  I feel like I should know it but I've got no clue...

that's Dr. Happy Tooth - very scarce hence it being up there but not golden age 

[sfcityduck]

10 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

DC appears to have had numerous Publisher's Brands and numerous Indicia Publishers - it's a real jigsaw puzzle.  Someone should write a primer on these.

Do I notice that we have a red, white and blue cover and black, white and red cover?

The House Ad above says "Now on Sale Everywhere".  Is it possible that this was never distributed given its scarcity?  Or perhaps that it had limited regional distribution?

Colors are the same, photo skills differ (my copy looks darker than it is).  My copy was found in the Finger Lakes region of NY.  I suspect that the nature of this publication made it less likely to survive WWII.  Who in the US really needed to be concerned about air raids? 

[Ameri]

For your reading pleasure

https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=32606

 

[pemart1966]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Colors are the same, photo skills differ (my copy looks darker than it is).  My copy was found in the Finger Lakes region of NY.  I suspect that the nature of this publication made it less likely to survive WWII.  Who in the US really needed to be concerned about air raids? 

After Pearl Harbour - probably everybody.

[pemart1966]

I wonder whether this was solely a Gaines effort with its promotion in DC comics and therefore not a DC comic at all?

After all, Gaines' name and the future EC Comics address are at the bottom of the front cover and "...All-American and National shared marketing and promotional efforts as well as characters."

[sfcityduck]

27 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

I wonder whether this was solely a Gaines effort with its promotion in DC comics and therefore not a DC comic at all?

After all, Gaines' name and the future EC Comics address are at the bottom of the front cover and "...All-American and National shared marketing and promotional efforts as well as characters."

Some have suggested this was really the first EC (which might make it worth more because there are more EC completests than DC completests).  However, the publisher, Jolaine Publications, was a publisher solely of All-American's comics - All-Flash, Comic Calvacade, and Green Lantern.  The office address was presumably M.C. Gaines' office address.  He had not yet sold All-American to D.C. and started E.C.

Edited August 25, 2020 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

19 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Some have suggested this was really the first EC (which might make it worth more because there are more EC completests than DC completests).  However, the publisher, Jolaine Publications, was a publisher solely of All-American's comics - All-Flash, Comic Calvacade, and Green Lantern.  The office address was presumably M.C. Gaines' office address.  He had not yet sold All-American to D.C. and started E.C.

So if Jolaine was a publisher of solely All American comics and All American was Gaines' baby wouldn't that lend the possibility that this was solely a Gaines effort?  

Edited August 25, 2020 by pemart1966

[sfcityduck]

Just now, pemart1966 said:

But he was doing stuff on his own at that time was he not?

You mean other than All-American?  I don't know.  All-American was his company until he sold it entirely to DC.  It just shared promotion and characters with DC.  For example, the JSA was a combo of DC and All-American characters.  As a result, DC started the Seven Soldiers with just DC characters so it could have its own team independent of Gaines.

[OtherEric]

The line between All-American and EC has never been nearly as sharp or clear as collectors want it to be.  I believe the first book with "Educational Comics" as the indicia publisher was Picture Stories from the Bible (New Testament) #2, which had the AA logo on the front cover.  EC essentially started as what was left of AA after DC bought most of it.

[sfcityduck]

9 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

So if Jolaine was a publisher of solely All American comics and All American was Gaines' baby wouldn't that lend the possibility that this was solely a Gaines effort?  

All-American Comics are considered DC Comics by DC collectors.

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, OtherEric said:

The line between All-American and EC has never been nearly as sharp or clear as collectors want it to be.  I believe the first book with "Educational Comics" as the indicia publisher was Picture Stories from the Bible (New Testament) #2, which had the AA logo on the front cover.  EC essentially started as what was left of AA after DC bought most of it.

Agree, but that was after 1942.  From Wikipedia (take it with a grain of salt):

Max Gaines, future founder of EC Comics, formed All-American Publications in 1938 after successfully seeking funding from Harry Donenfeld,^[1]:147 CEO of both National Allied Publications (publisher of Action Comics and other titles) and sister company Detective Comics (publisher of that namesake comic book). As Gerard Jones writes of Donenfeld's investment:

Harry had agreed on one condition: that [Gaines] take [Detective Comics partner] Jack Liebowitz on as his partner. ... Jack would be tempted to leave and form a competing company if there was nothing to hold him. And it may well have been a way for Harry to keep Gaines under control; since Jack was still drawing a salary and significant bonuses from Detective Comics and [self-distributorship] Independent News, he wouldn't let Gaines take off on his own or act against the interests of the other companies. ... Gaines became the principal and Jack Liebowitz the minority owner of All-American [Publications].^[1]:164

While All-American, at 225 Lafayette Street in Manhattan, was physically separated from DC's office space uptown at 480 Lexington Avenue, it used the informal "DC" logo on most of its covers for distribution and marketing reasons. In 1944,^[1]:223[2] Gaines sold his share of the company to Liebowitz, keeping only Picture Stories from the Bible as the foundation of his own new company, EC. As Jones describes,

Gaines saw the end of the superhero fad coming and wanted to get into something more durable, like children's books and magazines. ... In 1944, he decided he'd had enough. He let Jack Liebowitz buy him out with a loan from Harry.... Liebowitz promptly orchestra the merger of All American Comics and Detective Comics into National Comics, of which he was the junior partner, vice president, and publisher. Next he took charge of organizing National Comics, Independent News, and their affiliated firms into a single corporate entity, National Periodical Publications".^[1]:223

Before the merger, Gaines first rebranded All-American with its own logo, beginning with books cover-dated February 1945: All-Flash #17, Sensation Comics #38, Flash Comics #62, Green Lantern #14, Funny Stuff #3, and Mutt & Jeff ^{[note 2]} #16, and the following month's All-American Comics #64 and the hyphenless All Star Comics #24. Liebowitz later merged his and Donenfeld's companies into National Comics Publications.^[1]:223

[PeterPark]

3 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

All-American Comics are considered DC Comics by DC collectors.

So if Quality and Charlton were also purchased by DC Comics or National Periodicals at a later date, are pre-DC Quality's and Charltons also considered DCs? I'm sure there are other publishers that are not coming to mind right now...but I think the point is there. Oh yeah! Fawcett!

[sfcityduck]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

So if Quality and Charlton were also purchased by DC Comics or National Periodicals at a later date, are pre-DC Quality's and Charltons also considered DCs? I'm sure there are other publishers that are not coming to mind right now...but I think the point is there. Oh yeah! Fawcett!

All-American was not purchased by DC in toto, as was the case with Quality.  Instead, Donenfeld, the man who owned National and Detective Comics in 1938 (the then two components of DC) partially funded in All-American's creation and insisted that the part owner of Detective Comics be a part owner of All-American, such that as of that date D.C. had three component company's - National, Detective, and All-American which shared promotion and characters.  Quality was an acquisition by DC long after Quality was formed.  Completely different.

[OtherEric]

2 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

So if Quality and Charlton were also purchased by DC Comics or National Periodicals at a later date, are pre-DC Quality's and Charltons also considered DCs? I'm sure there are other publishers that are not coming to mind right now...but I think the point is there. Oh yeah! Fawcett!

The obvious difference would be that, unlike Quality, Charlton, and Fawcett, most All-American books prior to late 1944 had the DC logo on the cover.

Another example of a book published by Gaines (instead of AA) would be the newspaper section version (similar to a Spirit section) of Picture Stories from the Bible, also from 1942:

https://www.comics.org/series/82231/

I think calling the book the first EC is a bit of a stretch... but I see the case being made, and wouldn't fault anybody including it with either EC's or DC's.   Or having it separate from both.  It's such a rare oddity that there may never be a general consensus on where to file it.

If I hadn't made it clear before, I think it's an interesting book and an awesome pick-up for @sfcityduck!

[sfcityduck]

16 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

So if Quality and Charlton were also purchased by DC Comics or National Periodicals at a later date, are pre-DC Quality's and Charltons also considered DCs? I'm sure there are other publishers that are not coming to mind right now...but I think the point is there. Oh yeah! Fawcett!

Worth noting that the comic book which everyone, including DC, views as the first DC - New Fun 1 - was not published by Detectic Comics Inc., but by National Allied Publications - which was then owned by Major Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson.  MMW-N published New Fun/More Fun and New Comics/New Adventure/Adventure up until 1937, when he joined with Harry Donenfeld and Jack Liebowitz to create Dectective Comics Inc. to publish Detective Comics 1.  MMW-N was subsequently forced out.  It's a convoluted history, but pretty much all comic historians and DC collectors view National, Detective Comics, and All-American as DC companies upon their formation.

[PeterPark]

All I "know" about the acquisition, or amalgamation, or restructuring, or whatever you would like to call it, I got from Wikipedia. I always thought of Green Lantern, et. al., as DC but I wasn't sure if there might be more to it. 

I do know that characters from both companies were in the original JSA, so that is pretty telling. 

I can see some convolution here but I find the history of comics very interesting so I appreciate the discussion. 

[sfcityduck]

22 minutes ago, OtherEric said:

The obvious difference would be that, unlike Quality, Charlton, and Fawcett, most All-American books prior to late 1944 had the DC logo on the cover.

Another example of a book published by Gaines (instead of AA) would be the newspaper section version (similar to a Spirit section) of Picture Stories from the Bible, also from 1942:

https://www.comics.org/series/82231/

I think calling the book the first EC is a bit of a stretch... but I see the case being made, and wouldn't fault anybody including it with either EC's or DC's.   Or having it separate from both.  It's such a rare oddity that there may never be a general consensus on where to file it.

If I hadn't made it clear before, I think it's an interesting book and an awesome pick-up for @sfcityduck!

Not sure I agree as Picture Stories from the Bible was also published in 1942 as a "DC" branded comic book publication by MC Gaines out of his All-American offices.  Picture Stories from the Bible 1 featured the stories of Noah, Joseph, Moses, etc.

These same stories by the same writer (Montgomery Mulford) and artist (Don Cameron) were in the Newspaper inserts:

What were the financial arrangements regarding the newspaper inserts?  I'm not sure anyone knows.  But if I were out to get all DC publications, I'd be picking up those inserts as well.

Edited August 25, 2020 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

41 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

All-American Comics are considered DC Comics by DC collectors.

To me this book has way more Gaines solo effort written on it than being a DC product.  Even the topic was not what DC was doing at the time.  BUT...what do I know?  

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, pemart1966 said:

After Pearl Harbour - probably everybody.

Hawaii didn't become a State until 1959.  I don't think there was ever an air raid on the US proper.  You're right that Pearl Harbor created a bit of a frenzy for a time which likely led to the idea of creating this book, but it quickly became apparent that the US was safe from air raids during WWII.