Does "show through" bother you?

[Elvis]

The reason it's called a transfer stain is that it is caused by the oil from the interior pages transferring to the cover. You can perform an experiment yourself to prove this with a comic by applying a small amount of your favorite cooking oil to the cover. The oil gives the cover transluency allowing the interior of the cover to be seen at the same time. This rarely occurs in GA comics as the cover stock and sizing are thick enough to prevent the transfer. It will most often show up in GA as if there is "tanning" on the inside cover. The tanning due to transfer stain is of little significance in comparison to the tanning that is indicative of brittle covers and pages.

 

I'm not sure of the qualities of the micro-chamber paper, but my suspicion has been that it was more likely to act as a barrier to the oil transfer. I'd be happy to have a more knowledgeable person weigh in on this.

 

CGC does allow the transfer stain in high grade books. For example, the Spiderman 19 9.9 has a noticeable transfer stain. Marvels are more susceptible to this than DCs because the quality and thickness of their cover stock is much less than for DCs of the same time period. In general it hasn't been regarded as a major defect because the best preserved collections (with the whitest pages) are more likely to have it than lesser copies.

 

The transfer stain is typically a sign of high-quality paper, as that paper is still fresh/moist enough for it to have retained it's oils. The transfer stain is not destructive and can be removed, although that will involve disassembly of the comic and a bath for the cover. In some cases, however, the oil transferred out early in the life of the comic and then deteriorated. This results in a both transfer stain and low quality pages.

 

There was considerable use of an unstable red pigment in the comics from the early 50s. When there is a significant transfer stain, you'll see that pigment spread when it's in contact with the oils.

 

The transfer stain will grow from the middle of the book out to the edges. It's not that unusual for a 50s book to have a noticeable "frame" of a clean cover around the area that has the transfer stain.

 

Wow Adamstrange. Very informative post. Never dawned on me that it was oils from printing. To be honest, I have never considered this a defect because it almost always appears on a book with good page quality. I have yet to see it detract from a book.

 

Elvis

[divad]

The reason it's called a transfer stain is that it is caused by the oil from the interior pages transferring to the cover. You can perform an experiment yourself to prove this with a comic by applying a small amount of your favorite cooking oil to the cover. The oil gives the cover transluency allowing the interior of the cover to be seen at the same time. This rarely occurs in GA comics as the cover stock and sizing are thick enough to prevent the transfer. It will most often show up in GA as if there is "tanning" on the inside cover. The tanning due to transfer stain is of little significance in comparison to the tanning that is indicative of brittle covers and pages.

 

I'm not sure of the qualities of the micro-chamber paper, but my suspicion has been that it was more likely to act as a barrier to the oil transfer. I'd be happy to have a more knowledgeable person weigh in on this.

 

CGC does allow the transfer stain in high grade books. For example, the Spiderman 19 9.9 has a noticeable transfer stain. Marvels are more susceptible to this than DCs because the quality and thickness of their cover stock is much less than for DCs of the same time period. In general it hasn't been regarded as a major defect because the best preserved collections (with the whitest pages) are more likely to have it than lesser copies.

 

The transfer stain is typically a sign of high-quality paper, as that paper is still fresh/moist enough for it to have retained it's oils. The transfer stain is not destructive and can be removed, although that will involve disassembly of the comic and a bath for the cover. In some cases, however, the oil transferred out early in the life of the comic and then deteriorated. This results in a both transfer stain and low quality pages.

 

There was considerable use of an unstable red pigment in the comics from the early 50s. When there is a significant transfer stain, you'll see that pigment spread when it's in contact with the oils.

 

The transfer stain will grow from the middle of the book out to the edges. It's not that unusual for a 50s book to have a noticeable "frame" of a clean cover around the area that has the transfer stain.

 

AS,

 

Although your comments are both accurate and eloquent, I believe you're confusing two separate conditions: 1) transfer stains and oil migration, and 2) transparency (not transluscency) relating to cover stock, interior paper quality, and pigmentation. I say this primarily because, the ineloquent "show-through" is often observed in books without any symptoms of transfer stains or oil migration.

 

I agree that micro-chamber paper would act as a barrier, and not exacerbate oil migration and transfer stains - a primary reason for it's use.

 

-d

[RickHigh]

All good answers. I don't think the transfer stain, or "show through" affects the grade of a book, mainly because, IMO, it's not there until the book is slabbed. I wonder if you take the book out of the slab if the "stain" goes away, or is not as visible? I don't consider the "stain" a defect myself, just takes away from the esthetics of the book.

[VintageComics]

The reason it's called a transfer stain is that it is caused by the oil from the interior pages transferring to the cover. You can perform an experiment yourself to prove this with a comic by applying a small amount of your favorite cooking oil to the cover. The oil gives the cover transluency allowing the interior of the cover to be seen at the same time. This rarely occurs in GA comics as the cover stock and sizing are thick enough to prevent the transfer. It will most often show up in GA as if there is "tanning" on the inside cover. The tanning due to transfer stain is of little significance in comparison to the tanning that is indicative of brittle covers and pages.

 

I'm not sure of the qualities of the micro-chamber paper, but my suspicion has been that it was more likely to act as a barrier to the oil transfer. I'd be happy to have a more knowledgeable person weigh in on this.

 

CGC does allow the transfer stain in high grade books. For example, the Spiderman 19 9.9 has a noticeable transfer stain. Marvels are more susceptible to this than DCs because the quality and thickness of their cover stock is much less than for DCs of the same time period. In general it hasn't been regarded as a major defect because the best preserved collections (with the whitest pages) are more likely to have it than lesser copies.

 

The transfer stain is typically a sign of high-quality paper, as that paper is still fresh/moist enough for it to have retained it's oils. The transfer stain is not destructive and can be removed, although that will involve disassembly of the comic and a bath for the cover. In some cases, however, the oil transferred out early in the life of the comic and then deteriorated. This results in a both transfer stain and low quality pages.

 

There was considerable use of an unstable red pigment in the comics from the early 50s. When there is a significant transfer stain, you'll see that pigment spread when it's in contact with the oils.

 

The transfer stain will grow from the middle of the book out to the edges. It's not that unusual for a 50s book to have a noticeable "frame" of a clean cover around the area that has the transfer stain.

 

AS,

 

Although your comments are both accurate and eloquent, I believe you're confusing two separate conditions: 1) transfer stains and oil migration, and 2) transparency (not transluscency) relating to cover stock, interior paper quality, and pigmentation. I say this primarily because, the ineloquent "show-through" is often observed in books without any symptoms of transfer stains or oil migration.

 

I agree that micro-chamber paper would act as a barrier, and not exacerbate oil migration and transfer stains - a primary reason for it's use.

 

-d

 

Showoff! I might dis-gree on one point, Diva. On early S.A. Marvels it is the oil transfer that causes the "show through" because of the terrible inks, whereas on later bronze books the books seemed to suffer from thinner cover stock causing the showthrough.

[BassGMan]

All good answers. I don't think the transfer stain, or "show through" affects the grade of a book, mainly because, IMO, it's not there until the book is slabbed. I wonder if you take the book out of the slab if the "stain" goes away, or is not as visible? I don't consider the "stain" a defect myself, just takes away from the esthetics of the book.

 

Yes, "show-through" is definitely visible in many raw books. ASM #298 is a prime example of this that often has very bad, and obvious "show-through". As a matter of fact, I have refrained from sending in several very HG copies of that book to CGC due to fear of them being either downgraded for it, or less appealing to potential buyers because of it.

[namisgr]

Thanks, AS, for a terrific description and explanation of transfer stain. The example below from the PC pedigree is a clear example of the leaching of the interior cover and the transfer of oils. Not only are the text ads visible on the front cover, but the interior three-quarters of the front cover has a slight brownish tinge owing to the oil transfer. This is especially obvious on white covers, that tend to retain their whiteness only around the four edges, but can be seen on any light colored front cover area. While I am very pleased to own this book, I do think the transfer stain detracts from it, since it gives the book an appearance very different from when it was new. Its appearance has nothing to do with encapsulation, since the transfer stain was just as prominent on the book before it was slabbed.

 

[drbanner]

The micro-chamber paper combined with the bright light of a scanner makes the translucency effect worse than it actually is. This was discussed in great detail many moons ago here on the board, and I did an experiment with the X-men 10 below where I scanned it once with the white micro-chamber paper, and again with black paper. CAn you tell which is which?

 

[divad]

Yup! Interesting

[tth2]

Marvels are more susceptible to this than DCs because the quality and thickness of their cover stock is much less than for DCs of the same time period.

This is very true. I can't think of a single DC in my collection which exhibits this type of translucence.

[skybolt]

I guess this is an example:

 

<img src="http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4558/bafflingmysteries7cgc80f3bp.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

 

Just curious, as these seem to be slabbed books,...what are the grades? Any grader notes?

 

The Baffling Mysteries #7 is an unrestored 8.0. I haven't called for graders notes though.

[Forbush-Man]

I guess this is an example:

 

<img src="http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4558/bafflingmysteries7cgc80f3bp.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

 

Just curious, as these seem to be slabbed books,...what are the grades? Any grader notes?

 

The Baffling Mysteries #7 is an unrestored 8.0. I haven't called for graders notes though.

 

I don't believe this has anything to do with slabbed books, I've seen this with raw books as well.

[divad]

I guess this is an example:

 

<img src="http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4558/bafflingmysteries7cgc80f3bp.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

 

 

Just curious, as these seem to be slabbed books,...what are the grades? Any grader notes?

 

The Baffling Mysteries #7 is an unrestored 8.0. I haven't called for graders notes though.

 

I don't believe this has anything to do with slabbed books, I've seen this with raw books as well.

 

Yes, that's true: raw books, in hand (not scanned), and without micro-chamber paper.

 

What they're referring to is also apparently true

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

[the blob]

here's an example of where red/pink really shows through (and I had multiples of this issue with the same thing going on):

 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/jlhh2004/winnie1.jpg

[THE_BEYONDER]

Have you submitted any of these? Curious whether CGC would downgrade in this case.

 

 

[the blob]

well, that pooh had too many other dings to consider submitting as did the other one. those who bought them didn't seem to care.

[Mr. Zipper]

The micro-chamber paper combined with the bright light of a scanner makes the translucency effect worse than it actually is. This was discussed in great detail many moons ago here on the board, and I did an experiment with the X-men 10 below where I scanned it once with the white micro-chamber paper, and again with black paper. CAn you tell which is which?

 

 

Bingo. The white microchamber paper reflects the light back through the cover, in effect, illuminating the inside artwork. In my view, this is NOT a transfer stain. When the microchamber paper is removed, the effect is reduced dramatically or disappears completely.

 

A transfer stain is when oils from the interior pages leech onto the cover stock, creating a translucent yellowish tone to the cover -- like the example someone showed previously. Much like rubbing oil onto a piece of paper and it becomes translucent. The effect may be worsened by microchamber paper, but will still be very noticible even when the microchamber paper is removed.

[PovertyRow]

The micro-chamber paper combined with the bright light of a scanner makes the translucency effect worse than it actually is.

 

Actually, Dr. B, the bright l;ight of the scanner is not even a pre-requisite. I have been taking all of my books and putting them in Mylite 2s with Fullback and microchamber paper.

 

Many books I microchamber are suddenly more translucent, and in some cases much more. And this is not in bright light - just the light from a 60 watt incandescent in a glassed celing fixture.

 

The microchamber paper really briongs out the translucency.

[jbud73]

I have seen it on several golden age books with cream to off-white pages.

 

Just another reason the avoid that rubbish Chris.

[divad]

The micro-chamber paper combined with the bright light of a scanner makes the translucency effect worse than it actually is.

 

Actually, Dr. B, the bright l;ight of the scanner is not even a pre-requisite. I have been taking all of my books and putting them in Mylite 2s with Fullback and microchamber paper.

 

Many books I microchamber are suddenly more translucent, and in some cases much more. And this is not in bright light - just the light from a 60 watt incandescent in a glassed celing fixture.

 

The microchamber paper really briongs out the translucency.

 

Again, I hate to be a stickler here, but the correct word is transparent, not translucent

 

We should all endeavor to use the correct word. For example, many people often use the word "utilize" when they mean simply "use". I suppose utilizing longer words makes them feel smarter . . .