CGC Bags

[blowout]

We have been discussing lately the effectiveness of the CGC case/ well in the preservation of comic books.

What about the bags the holders come in?

I assume that most here would keep their CGC books in some kind of bag to prevent the holder from getting scratched etc. But it seems to me that the CGC bags themselves a cheap type of plastic that would almost certainly be giving off harmful gases.

Does everybody here use the CGC bags regardless or are you trying other methods of protecting the CGC case?

[Rickdogg]

I personally use "thick" CGC bags that I bought from ebay ID "sr5800."

[musicmeta]

I sometimes use the thick CGC bags also.

[murph0]

I use the magazine size "mylars"

 

Brian

[BronzeBruce13]

Smart man

[blowout]

Time to buy some more mylars then.

Does anyone else think it is funny that CGC put so much time/money into researching long term storage for graded books, then decided to put them in such poor quality bags?

[BronzeBruce13]

It might not matter... I'm not sure anything harmful can travel through the outer case and barex inner well anyway. I just think its not a bad idea to play it safe. I asked Tracey Heft a similar question about having the slabs in standard magazine boxes in my thread (which have a ton more harmful acids) but did not get an answer.

 

I think the obvious thing is... we have to pay closer attention to how we are storing our slabs in terms of environment. The temperature should stay consistent (and as low as possible) although I don't know yet how much variance is allowable to maintain the "equilibrium". As I understand it, when that is reached, the aging process almost halts if there are no harmful agents in contact with the comic. When the environment changes enough (how many degrees I still don't know)... equilibrium is disturbed and aging starts again until its stabilized once again.

 

The humidity is another factor I'm trying to determine. James seems to have this part figured out. It may be that some of us will have to have dehumidifiers running all the time... depending on where you live. I think if humidity levels exceed 60% or so, that is beyond the recommended level. I was informed that if you live closer to the coast (water) you'll have more difficulties maintaining it.

 

I'm getting a thermometer and humidity gauge? in my comic office soon and will keep an eye on things. In the winter I block off my vents.. in the summer they are open.... so I'm guessing my storage area is around 65 degrees on average.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

It may be that some of us will have to have dehumidifiers running all the time... depending on where you live. I think if humidity levels exceed 60% or so, that is beyond the recommended level. I was informed that if you live closer to the coast (water) you'll have more difficulties maintaining it.

I've been using a dehumidifier for about the last year...I don't have humidity control totally figured out, but I guess I'm a little above average since I've got that year's experience and I've done some research. You shouldn't have to run a dehumidier in the winter if the temperature in your area gets below 50 for long stretches of time; the cold seems to keep the humidity below 30% at my house in Virginia throughout the winter. I saw an article on the the Library of Congress' web site which recommends that the goal for humidity should be that it is 50% and doesn't vary by more than plus-or-minus 5%, meaning you shouldn't let it go below 45% or above 55% since changes in environment are what upset paper that is in a state of equilibrium. Since the humidity in my house varies from 25% in the winter to 75% in the summer, I doubt I'll ever hit the ideal humidity range, although I can get extremely close to it and can prevent it from going above 55%, which is worse than it going too low.

 

However, there are other factors which can work for--and possibly against--a collection which I don't understand yet. I was talking with another board member on the telephone last weekend, and he was arguing that living in a high humidity area doesn't necessarily mean that you need special storage or a dehumidifier. The crux of his argument was the Gaines EC file copies. Bill Gaines kept his comics in his New York apartment, and New York can get rather humid in the summers. Bill stored his books in stacks wrapped in paper bags, and I *THINK* he stuck the paper bags into a safe, although I could be wrong about the safe part. Based upon the page whiteness descriptions that CGC has given the Gaines file copies, they range from Cream to Off-White all the way up to White pages. From the examples I've seen--and if you search Heritage's auction history you'll see several hundred Gaines copies there--there are roughly as many cream pagers as there are white pagers. So, the magic question is--how did so many copies maintain their white pages in a non-ideal storage environment? And why are some cream and some white from the same presumably untouched collection?

 

Wish I knew the answer to this question, because there are quite a few collections where the humidity is mixed--Western Penn is another example, since the Silver age copies vary in a similar way that the Gaines copies do, although Western Penn appears to have more white paged copies than the Gaines collection does. My best guess is that the white pagers were generally in the middle of stacks in those paper bags Gaines used...but I have no answer as to how those copies retained their white pages in an environment where the humidity almost certainly varied widely throughout the year. Could it be that the interior of a metallic safe have a more stable humidity level than the space it's being stored in? I don't know.

 

Although I can't account for how some collections stored in non-ideal environments contain copies with white pages, I can say that comics stored in low-humidity environments tend to retain their whiteness more than variable or high humidity environments. Take the pedigrees, for example. The ones with predominantly white pages I'm aware of are Mile High and White Mountain; from what I've gathered, both of those collections came from states with low year-round humidity levels. Gaines and Western Penn came from East Coast states, and they have a fair amount of cream pagers.

[musicmeta]

I've just switched to the magazine size mylars.

[blowout]

Some interesting points about humidity. Your example about the Gaines books is a good one, could it be that these have such nice pages quality because they were 'untouched' for so many years?

From what I understand from TH's posts, the micro-environment is the important thing to keep constant, it doesn't matter what happens outside of that.

This leads me to believe (not a big surprise) that collections stored away without human intervention for long periods will display a nicer quality than those that are often moved/ displayed/ rearanged etc on a regular basis.

[fantastic_four]

From what I understand from TH's posts, the micro-environment is the important thing to keep constant, it doesn't matter what happens outside of that.

Temperature and humidity affect paper inside of plastic...if you can't keep the "macro"-environment stable, then the microenvironment won't be stable either. I'd say the Gaines books are an example of the moderately unstable environment that is pervasive across the East Coast of the US since a good number of Gaines's books have cream pages. Had he been taking them in and out, more of them probably would have ended up as cream.

[PovertyRow]

I'd say the Gaines books are an example of the moderately unstable environment that is pervasive across the East Coast of the US

 

Amen to that! Living about 47 years in Boston and keping A/C and dehumidifeires going as needed, I have to say it is a tough battle to win! Yes, the macro climate will definitely trickle down to the micro!

[fantastic_four]

Over the last year, I've found the toughest thing about dehumidification is the mid-Spring and mid-Fall months where the temperature hovers in the 60s and 70s. Dehumidifiers don't work below 70, so when the temperature keeps going up and down around that mark, it's extremely difficult to suck the water out of the air!! I have to keep the HEAT on in my comic room during this time just to make the dehumidifier work...I keep feeling like there's gotta be a better way.

[PovertyRow]

I keep feeling like there's gotta be a better way.

 

I hear you! Unfortunately, the only better way I know is to actually create a sealed micro-environment that is insulated from the environment it is within, anfd then apply proper heat/humidity controls. Or it may just be easier to move!

[fantastic_four]

So do you heat your comics room also in Spring/Fall?

 

I've heard that libraries have "cold rooms" where the temp is kept in the 50s...how do they keep humidity down in those, I wonder? Dehumidification isn't an option at that temperature from everything I've heard so far.

[PovertyRow]

So do you heat your comics room also in Spring/Fall?

 

No longer a need to think about this since I moved to San Francisco (am actually IN SF - Pacific Heights) in 1999. Overall, every month of the year, the heat/humidity is quite nice. Yes there are some variances but I am talking overall +/- 20 degrees F over a year as opposed to +/- 80 degrees F over a year in Boston. And the humidity is similarly consistent. It is funny. San Franciso proper is a GREAT place for comic book preservation and the worst big city I have been to for comic book shops.

[Hensley300]

Also, what about the comic shops and newbies that still display their comics on the wall. Light and sunlight can fade. It would be nice if the bags or cases were more like conservation glass (blocks uv). Years down the road a 9.8 could turn into a 9.0

[PovertyRow]

Also, what about the comic shops and newbies that still display their comics on the wall

 

I confess to shuddering when I see books displayed on the wall wioth fluorescent and sunlight in the mix.

[blowout]

I am a little confused by the temp vs. humidity thing.

You talk about keeping a room heated to maintain constant humidity, but isn't a lower temperature better for long term preservation?

I was under the impression that humidity drops right off below a certain temperature (?), correct me if I am wrong.

[PovertyRow]

You talk about keeping a room heated to maintain constant humidity, but isn't a lower temperature better for long term preservation?

 

OK - am I cursed? This is the third time today I have been attributed with what I have not said.

 

But on a serious note - I would use silica gel to help maintain humidity - even to the point of slow-baking the used in a low oven. But yes - usually humidity and tempertaure have a way of equalizing themselves. but I tried to maintain an average for humidity and sometimes the silica gel actually helped.