Old high grade comics...how the heck did they stay so nice????

[Mister_Comics]

Old high grade comics...how the heck did they stay so nice?

 

By shear luck.

 

Most of those high graded books were STORAGE ACCIDENTS. They just happened to be in the right place over the years.

 

About a year ago, at an estate sale, I found two old 1960 comics stuck inside a old magazine. Sitting on a shelf in a basement, undisturbed for many years. Those two comics graded 9.6. No special protection at all. Just sitting there in a dark basement. Luckly no critters. It was a well kepted home. But this goes to show ya that ya don't have to have all that super duper protection ta have nice books. Heck! Books I've protected better then Fort Knox don't grade as well as that.

 

Go figure!

[october]

I found two old 1960 comics stuck inside a old magazine.

 

What were they?

[ArAich]

I found two old 1960 comics stuck inside a old magazine.

 

What were they?

 

I'm guessing they were in a Life magazine...

[tth2]

I was always taught respect for personal possesions and property and since I loved books and reading I always handled them with care. I used bookmarks and never laid them down open etc. The same with my comics, I loved them like I did my books and treated them well. I hated loaning out books, because people would either not return them or they'd come back dog eared and abused. So call me an anal little bugger, but I was still able to enjoy them.

Sure, I'm not saying books purchased kids or teenagers won't survive in HG, but the odds are against it.

 

Harry/Burntboy provides a pretty good example: the stuff he purchased when he was a kid, which he read and treated like any normal kid would, are all mid-grade at best, but as he became an adolescent and started reading them less (or not at all) and was more careful in storing them away, the level of preservation radically improved, resulting in an average grade of 9.0/9.2 for the post-1963 books.

 

His care in handling aside, it's clear that the biggest factor in his books' preservation was the fact that they then sat relatively untouched in some dresser drawers for years, and maybe decades. I know at some point he moved them into the old polystyrene bags and non-deacidifed boards, but I don't know if that was the 1970s or 1980s, and then at some point he transferred them into mylars. My guess is that the books would've come out pretty much as they have even if he'd never bagged and boarded them or moved into mylars, so long as they stayed untouched and unmoved and so long as the climate conditions of the room where the dresser drawers were located stayed relatively benign.

[Mister_Comics]

What were they?

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I'm guessing they were in a Life magazine...

 

RAILS ACROSS AMERICA. Promo comics about the railroad. Found them inside a TRAIN COLLECTOR magazine. The lady said her late husband was a toy train collector. She was selling it all including the train mags. I just happened across the two comics. The magazines were just piled on a shelf, kind of just thrown on there. No special way. I was the first to go through the magazines. Lucky me.

 

Since then I've managed to find all the rest of that series of railroad comics in lesser grade. With Ebay nothing is hard to find any more. I have an extra graded 9.6.

Anyone interested?

[tth2]

About a year ago, at an estate sale, I found two old 1960 comics stuck inside a old magazine. Sitting on a shelf in a basement, undisturbed for many years. Those two comics graded 9.6. No special protection at all. Just sitting there in a dark basement. Luckly no critters. It was a well kepted home. But this goes to show ya that ya don't have to have all that super duper protection ta have nice books. Heck! Books I've protected better then Fort Knox don't grade as well as that.

Yup, this supports my earlier points. Besides not being disturbed, I think the climate and conditions in which books are stored significantly outweigh factors such as bagging and boarding, polystyrene vs. mylar, "regular" vs. acid-free boards and boxes, etc.

 

If Edgar Church had bagged and boarded his books, and stood them up in boxes, I doubt they would've come out much better than they did just being stacked up with no protection at all those years, and perhaps even better than if they'd been put in polystyrene bags all those years. The most important thing was they were in his dark basement in the cool, dry climate of Colorado and weren't touched. If you put your books in mylar and acid-free boards and boxes but store them in an unairconditioned attic of a house in the Southeast US for decades, you're going to have some pretty brown books. Similarly, if you lug your mylared books to a comic con frequently, where they can be pawed and handled, even through the mylar, the chances of them suffering some wear and tear go up exponentially.

[sfilosa]

Harry/Burntboy provides a pretty good example: the stuff he purchased when he was a kid, which he read and treated like any normal kid would, are all mid-grade at best, but as he became an adolescent and started reading them less (or not at all) and was more careful in storing them away, the level of preservation radically improved, resulting in an average grade of 9.0/9.2 for the post-1963 books.

 

 

Exactly what I have been saying.

 

Almost all those old comic books that were sold back and forth over the past 30 years at comic cons and shops, just have a tough time staying in NM shape.

 

How many Hulk #1's are certified so far in CGC 9.4? ONE. How many in 9.2. THREE. Of those four, how many are Pedigrees? TWO.

 

And lets not forget that Pre-1965 SA books are at least 40 years old. That means the original owners are probably 50 years old (or more) and as has been pointed out it was usually when the comic collector became older (in his teens) and started to lose interest in reading, and rereading that the books seem to stay in better shape. I have to believe many of these people haven't been storing their books in the ideal environment.

 

I'm not saying there aren't other collections out there of HG books. Of course there are. But probably not as many as one would believe, mostly because the books AREN'T in as nice of shape as the owner believes they are.

 

A perfect example is the collection of books from the owners of All-Star Auctions (which are now being sold on Heritage). While many of these books are structurally very nice, the state of preservation is not (i.e. tanning and cream to off-white pages).

 

It's just hard for a book to stay in NM shape unless it isn't being moved and it's stored in the right environment.

[Aman619]

I agree with you. Sure, lots of SA comics are out there, and plenty that we know nothing about... But, very few of the early ones (1958 - 1963) will end up being in the kill zone, 9.2s and 9.4s. A few, but the vast majority of them will be lower grades.

 

And Ill be here in 15 years to say I told you so!!! As will you Im sure Tim.

[divad]

Besides not being disturbed, I think the climate and conditions in which books are stored significantly outweigh factors such as bagging and boarding, polystyrene vs. mylar, "regular" vs. acid-free boards and boxes, etc.

 

My OO books have some of the whitest pages in existence, period. The ones I bought off the rack (post 1967) were never stored with boards, as boards weren't readily available or widely in use at the time. I avidly bought books from 1968 to 1975, and more or less quit when prices went up to $.35. They didn't go into poly bags until 1973, and were stored in tomato boxes and an old trunk, with alternating spines about every ten issues. They stayed in a ground level closet in my family's house in Connecticut and went untouched from 1980 - 2002. The most important factors contributing to their high-grade? (i) Undisturbed for two decades, and (ii) no cheap backboards. The high PQ is almost due entirely to the absence of boards in the bags.

 

The books that suffered the most were the ones I either brought with me to college or bought while I was there.

[divad]

I think the big players all realize this, but also understand they have a decade or so to move their books and amass a small fortune. Lotsa time left before the boomers start cleaning out the storage rooms.

 

You sir, are a wayward spunk trumpet! (with all due credit to FT)

[tth2]

How many Hulk #1's are certified so far in CGC 9.4? ONE. How many in 9.2. THREE. Of those four, how many are Pedigrees? TWO.

I think Linmoth has mentioned that he knows of a raw copy that is NM, but which the owner does not want to slab or sell at the current time.

[tth2]

The most important factors contributing to their high-grade? (i) Undisturbed for two decades, and (ii) no cheap backboards. The high PQ is almost due entirely to the absence of boards in the bags.

David, it's interesting that you think the older, non-deacidified backboards had that much of an adverse impact on a book's PQ. If everything's kept in a cool and dark place, I just wonder how much impact there really is. After all, the Salida OO wrapped his comics in newspaper, and sometimes the original subscription wrappers, and that obviously didn't impact the PQ very much. Similarly, a lot of warehouse copies were in boxes, and the cardboard and all the gases and acid being emitted didn't seem to impact the PQ significantly.

[divad]

The most important factors contributing to their high-grade? (i) Undisturbed for two decades, and (ii) no cheap backboards. The high PQ is almost due entirely to the absence of boards in the bags.

David, it's interesting that you think the older, non-deacidified backboards had that much of an adverse impact on a book's PQ. If everything's kept in a cool and dark place, I just wonder how much impact there really is. After all, the Salida OO wrapped his comics in newspaper, and sometimes the original subscription wrappers, and that obviously didn't impact the PQ very much. Similarly, a lot of warehouse copies were in boxes, and the cardboard and all the gases and acid being emitted didn't seem to impact the PQ significantly.

 

We discussed this aspect of using the traditional non-buffered boards at one of our local comic dinners. I believe the consensus was that they were contributory to PQ degradation because they are typically used in sealed or at least partially-sealed poly bags. The examples you give above do involve off-gassing, but in open environments - not closed environments. Not only are traditionally bagged and boarded books in semi-sealed, closed environments - but each book is individually targeted with a mated off-gassing acidic board.

 

Btw, I've also never been a proponent of vertical storage . . . but don't get me started. Arguably, it is has been only recently, that the comic collecting community has become cognizant and knowledgeable of archival storage methods (me included). I don't take a lot of credit for by books being sustained as well as they were - again it was an "accident" of storage conditions (that I am thankful for).

[Ringfinger]

My goodness there Mr. Wizard.

[Inhuman Fiend]

TTH...I appreciate you steering the discussion back to my original question. It would have been virtually impossible to maintain a pristine book back in the 60's unless it was stored untouched under ideal conditions, and I'm amazed so many were.

Sfilosa...you are thinking along the same lines I am. I do think the bulk of HG collections were due to ideal but ACCIDENTAL storage conditions. Warehouse stock, Edgar Church-type people, etc. But I really doubt that there are LOTS of those people out there sitting on truly HG books. Many have cited examples of the infamous old guy who walks into the comic shop with boxes of old HG stuff, or the 50 or 60 year old OO collectors who are still hoarding their books. Of course that has happened and will continue to happen to some degree...but I don't think there are huge numbers of these people out there. And of course it is true Americans have always been collectors and our fascination with holding onto stuff has never waned, but just because lots of people saved their comics or their relatives comics doesn't mean they were maintained in pristine condition....in fact I think it is highly unlikely. I think the vast majority of those comics have been read and moved around too much. Just look at eBay...that is where the average person sells their comics: How often do you see truly HG raw books up for sale in the "found these in Grandpa's attic" listings?

Of course I could be wrong and I have no concrete basis for this, but IMO 95% of all OO HG Silver and older books have already hit the market at some point.

[joe_collector]

Of course I could be wrong and I have no concrete basis for this, but IMO 95% of all OO HG Silver and older books have already hit the market at some point.

 

You really don't believe this, do you?

[Inhuman Fiend]

Oh...and that reminds me of a Church collection question I've often wondered about: If all his books were stored in massive stacks, why didn't they all have rolled spines?

[Inhuman Fiend]

Joe...yep, I do.

[Aman619]

didnt he rotate them every few inches or so?

or maybe they did, but chuck rolled over them in his minivan a few times and flattenned them out.

[joe_collector]

Joe...yep, I do.

 

95% of the OO high-grade Silver and older collections have already hit the market? Come on, even the most ardent CGC speculator would have to laugh at that number.

 

There are even long-time collectors on here who believe there will be more GA collections hit the market in the coming years.