Captain America "Sentinel's of Liberty" badge, 1941-1942 2 2

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:39 AM, vaillant said:

I suspected that… But maybe it wasn’t even him which stated so, I can’t recall. At any rate it was a member which seems reliable, but I found odd that in 1941-42 they might have used plastic.

The Shock Gibson kit is awesome!

As Robot said above, there were never any plastic badges produced during this time period.  The house ad reproduced above says it all.  They stopped the metal badge giveaways due to metal being needed for the war effort and that started the end of the club.  The war eventually ended, the enemies had been routed and there was no longer a need for Sentinels.

A switch to plastic would have necessitated a completely new die, manufacturing process, and supply chain - something that Goodman would not have wanted to pay for - and didn't.

If they had gone to plastic, the house ad above would never have been printed.  The ads would have kept right on saying "Kids - keep sending in your dimes!".  

Edited April 19, 2022 by pemart1966

[pemart1966]

On 4/17/2022 at 6:51 PM, SkoBuffs99 said:

Does anyone know how many of these badges were produced overall and what idea would you have as for what might still exist? I'd imagine that they would be few and far between in relation to the amount of Cap issues produced between 1941-1943 when the badges were sold. I've only seen a handful of examples over the years. Cap #5 mentions the goal of 100,000 members by July 4th 1941 but nothing that I've seen after this issue mentions whether or not that goal was reached? I'd imagine that 100,000 is on the high end of registered members that had badges as well but even then, how many of them have survived eight decades and are still around?

There may not be an answer, however, I was just mulling the idea of what was out there during the war and what might remain in 2022...

Alas, we'll never know unless someone happens to stumble upon a treasure trove of information similar to that found in the Lloyd Jacquet estate.

This being said, it's probably a safe bet that any production contracts were in nice round numbers.  You mention above the goal of 100,000 by July 4, 1941 - that would indicate to me that there were at least 100,000 produced, if not more.  Curiously though, as I mentioned above, I haven't seen a membership card number higher than 72046.  If they happened to produce 125,000 or 150,000 kits it's interesting that we haven't had a membership card or two from that range surface.

If someone knows the companies that Timely used to make the badges or print the envelopes and material perhaps they are still in business and have some sort of archives 

If anyone comes across and hitherto unknown envelopes or membership cards - please post them here!

[Robot Man]

Here is my first year set and the envelope for the slightly later copper badge version.

The Hakes guide explains the subtle difference. 

[sfcityduck]

A few fun facts about the CA Sentinels of Liberty set:

To my knowledge there is only one complete set still intact.  That set comprises the outside envelope, the inside envelope in which the badge was sent, the badge (with the original tissue it was wrapped in), the membership card, and, most importantly, the acknowledgment postcard that was sent separately before the badge and membership card were sent out. 

The real value is in the acknowledgment postcard.  There are only two postcards that I know of.  They are both dated in May of 1941, and that is probably around when the sets first shipped. A postcard alone sold on Hake's for about $5K, dwarfing the value of the badge and membership card.

The above Hakes postcard was part of a set (complete or incomplete I don't know) that was pieced out.  That was probably the oldest known set, issued to a Carl Von Hake of Philadelphia.  The postcard sold in one auction, the envelope sold in another with a membership card for someone else and a badge (whose, I don't know). 

What happened to the Carl Von Hake membership card is a mystery to me, but since his postcard has an earlier date (by a few days) than the other postcard, and his main envelope is the only one (I think) that was hand addressed not typed, it seems a fair supposition that it was about as early as anyone's seen.  

Interestingly, the membership numbers for the full complete intact set was in the 12,000s.  In all likelihood, that means they started the membership numbering with 10,000 or 12,000.  It seems highly unlikely that they'd circulated 12,000 badges by May 1941 because the first Sentinels of Libery ad appeared in CA 2 (cover date April 1941, estimated on sale date of February 10, 1941).

Edited April 19, 2022 by sfcityduck

[BitterOldMan]

Plastic badge given away in the nineties.   

There was a replica of the metal version several years later.

Pictures were taken off the web.

[vaillant]

Love all of the contributions! 💗

[sfcityduck]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:51 AM, Robot Man said:

Here is my first year set and the envelope for the slightly later copper badge version.

The Hakes guide explains the subtle difference. 

I'm not sure if you are talking about the differences in the two badges (which I knew about - copper dark stripe next to face and bronze/brass light stripe next to face) or differences in the envelopes (which I didn't), but this thread has three versions of the envelope in it.  The difference being the position of the CA graphic in relation to the letters directly above it.  The envelope for the complete set I've seen with the postcard from May 1941 is the same graphic placement as the Von Hake envelope and his postcard was also May 1941.

Edited April 19, 2022 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 6:14 PM, sfcityduck said:

I'm not sure if you are talking about the differences in the two badges (which I knew about - copper dark stripe next to face and bronze/brass light stripe next to face) or differences in the envelopes (which I didn't), but this thread has three versions of the envelope in it.  The difference being the position of the CA graphic in relation to the letters directly above it.  The envelope for the complete set I've seen with the postcard from May 1941 is the same graphic placement as the Von Hake envelope and his postcard was also May 1941.

The card also has different versions. Pointed "A" on the cowl vs a Squared off "A".  As well, the verbiage is spaced differently.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:28 PM, pemart1966 said:

The card also has different versions. Pointed "A" on the cowl vs a Squared off "A".  As well, the verbiage is spaced differently.

Good point!  With the pointed "A" being the earliest version.

Edited April 19, 2022 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

"Interestingly, the membership numbers for the full complete intact set was in the 12,000s.  In all likelihood, that means they started the membership numbering with 10,000 or 12,000.  It seems highly unlikely that they'd circulated 12,000 badges by May 1941 because the first Sentinels of Libery ad appeared in CA 2 (cover date April 1941, estimated on sale date of February 10, 1941)."

I respectfully have to disagree.

To me it seems highly likely that they could have mailed out 12,000 or more badges by May 13, 1941.  Here's why I say that.

According to CGC, the first 5 issues of Captain America went on sale as follows:

#1 - on December 20, 1940

#2 - on February 10, 1941

#3 - on March 17, 1941

#4 - on April 15, 1941

#5 - on May 5, 1941

The "Join the Club" ad appeared in all of these issues, including #1.  That would mean that they were ready to go with the start of the title.  That would mean almost 5 months of dimes flowing onto Timely offices from the time the first issue appeared on the stands until the post mark date on the Von Hake "Thank You" card.  12,000 kits would have been quite likely and quite attainable during this time frame given the immediate popularity of the book.

As well, it just makes sense that they would have started the membership numbering with "1".   Anything else does not make sense to me.  

Edited April 20, 2022 by pemart1966

[sfcityduck]

On 4/19/2022 at 5:00 PM, pemart1966 said:

 

As well, it just makes sense that they would have started the membership numbering with "1".   Anything else does not make sense to me.  

A lot of things about comics publishing and promotion makes no sense to me.  For example, there were comic publishers who started series with issues numbered 5 or 10 because they wanted the readers to think it was an established series.  But here, I think it is fairly easy to make sense of what happened.  

First, I suspect that it is easiest for the printer to print sequential numbers by having the same number of digits.  So if you plan is to print up 20,000 membership cards, and you want the numbers sequential, your choices are to start with 00001 and go to 20000 (which looks funny until you get to 10000) or start with 10,000 and go up to 30,000 (which looks like you have more members from the outset than you really do)

Second, I don't believe anyone's ever seen a membership number below 12,000.  Have you?  

Third, the Von Hake envelope is hand addressed.  I don't believe there is another hand addressed envelope anyone's seen.  I really doubt that they hand addressed 12000 envelopes between February and May.  That's a lot of envelopes, especially when they were also addressing an equal number of postcards.  And to my knowledge no one's ever seen another hand addressed envelope other than the Von Hake envelope.  That suggests that envelope was done very early in the process before they started shipping at a higher rate.

Fourth, there's the post-cards.  There are only two that have come to light.  The fact that they sent the acknowledgment postcard implies that they weren't in position to send the badges immediately.  Postcards like that are a bid for time.  It makes sense that only a few would have survived if they were only used for a limited time.

Finally, there's the Timely philosophy towards business.  I don't think it odd at all to think that Martin Goodman would not front the money to buy over 10,000 metal badges until he knew that kids were going to send in their dimes.  My guess is that he did not order the badges when the comics were first sent to the printers.  Instead, my guess is he waited a bit to confirm the scheme would work then put in the order and the badges were ready a few months after CA 1 was on the stand.

Is there any support for my guess about Goodman?  Yes.  A little known fact is that the first appearance of Captain America was not the cover of CA 1.  Instead, CA first appeared in two house ads in Human Torch 3 (2) which GCD has hitting the stands on December 10, 1940.  Both ads (supporting your point that I was wrong in thinking the first house ad was CA 2) reference a club called "Captain America's Junior Sentinels" and a "badge."  The first is this one:

The second talks about "Captain America's Sentinels" and is more notable because it has a picture of the badge:

 

As you can see, the badge is not the design that Timely went with.  I don't think they'd have gotten the badge design wrong if the order had already been put in.  

Also, the membership card was clearly not ordered until after CA 1 because it shows a round shield.  As do the envelopes.  I think that very persuasive evidence for my theory.  (But, hey, we all know I've been wrong before!)

To me, that they started with 10,000 or 12,000 just makes more sense. But reasonable minds can disagree and I don't know how we'd figure this one out.

Edited April 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:49 PM, sfcityduck said:

A lot of things about comics publishing and promotion makes no sense to me.  For example, there were comic publishers who started series with issues numbered 5 or 10 because they wanted the readers to think it was an established series.  But here, I think it is fairly easy to make sense of what happened.  

First, I suspect that it is easiest for the printer to print sequential numbers by having the same number of digits.  So if you plan is to print up 20,000 membership cards, and you want the numbers sequential, your choices are to start with 00001 and go to 20000 (which looks funny until you get to 10000) or start with 10,000 and go up to 30,000 (which looks like you have more members from the outset than you really do)

Second, I don't believe anyone's ever seen a membership number below 12,000.  Have you?  

Third, the Von Hake envelope is hand addressed.  I don't believe there is another hand addressed envelope anyone's seen.  I really doubt that they hand addressed 12000 envelopes between February and May.  That's a lot of envelopes, especially when they were also addressing an equal number of postcards.  And to my knowledge no one's ever seen another hand addressed envelope other than the Von Hake envelope.  That suggests that envelope was done very early in the process before they started shipping at a higher rate.

Fourth, there's the post-cards.  There are only two that have come to light.  The fact that they sent the acknowledgment postcard implies that they weren't in position to send the badges immediately.  Postcards like that are a bid for time.  It makes sense that only a few would have survived if they were only used for a limited time.

Finally, there's the Timely philosophy towards business.  I don't think it odd at all to think that Martin Goodman would not front the money to buy over 10,000 metal badges until he knew that kids were going to send in their dimes.  My guess is that he did not order the badges when the comics were first sent to the printers.  Instead, my guess is he waited a bit to confirm the scheme would work then put in the order and the badges were ready a few months after CA 1 was on the stand.

Is there any support for my guess about Goodman?  Yes.  A little known fact is that the first appearance of Captain America was not the cover of CA 1.  Instead, CA first appeared in two house ads in Human Torch 3 (2) which GCD has hitting the stands on December 10, 1940.  Both ads (supporting your point) reference a club called "Captain America's Junior Sentinels" and a "badge."  The first is this one:

The second talks about "Captain America's Sentinels" and is more notable because it has a picture of the badge:

 

As you can see, the badge is not the design that Timely went with.  I don't think they'd have gotten the badge design wrong if the order had already been put in.  

To me, that just makes more sense.   But reasonable minds can disagree and I don't know how we'd figure this one out.

Unfortunately...we don't figure it out...until such time as a membership card under 10000 shows up.  Until then...it's just theories.

You make some great points.  Let me address some of them...

1.  No, I've never seen a card numbered below 12xxx which in itself may not mean anything beyond the fact that none has shown up as of yet.  I haven't seen anything above 72046 but that does not mean that that's where the numbering ended.

2.  For sure they didn't hand address 12000 envelopes/cards.  Hand addressing might even be explained by something as simple as a typewriter ribbon breaking and someone have to go several blocks to the stationary store for a replacement.  Meanwhile, they broke out the pens and started writing as opposed to sitting there twiddling their thumbs (and costing Goodman $)

3.  The postcard makes no mention that the kit will be sent out shortly or something similar - just "thanks" and please write us.  So I don't think that it was a place marker until the kits were sent.  I don't think that very many of those cards were sent.  Some of the house ads in the comics, if I recall, also asked readers to write in so they probably realized that this was duplication and ended the cards soon after they began.

4.  Further compounding the mystery of the badge design is that the badge pictured in Captain America #1 is different from the one pictured in your last post which, by definition, is different from the final design.

Anyway - great to debate and hear other theories.  Hopefully, one day, we can solve these great mysteries!

Edited April 20, 2022 by pemart1966

[HistoryBuffalo]

Everyone’s comments and input has been tremendous! Even if we don’t come to a definite conclusion, it’s great to hear everyone’s ideas and for me personally, I love learning as much as I can about the badges and the Sentinels of Liberty club.

One thing that I’d like to add… although production of the badges ceased in 1942-43, there was no official end to the club. Therefore it’s been my personal belief that the current keepers of these badges make up the modern incarnation of the Sentinels of Liberty and are it’s modern day members! Kind of a neat way to think about it! I’ve always liked that these badges are a real, tangible connection to an otherwise fictional but still awesome character!

Lastly, here’s my ad page from Cap #5 showing the final badge design and essentially being a recruitment tool to draw in more membership. It’s very reminiscent of the “Uncle Sam Wants You” posters used for military recruitment.

Edited April 20, 2022 by SkoBuffs99

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:38 PM, SkoBuffs99 said:

Everyone’s comments and input has been tremendous! Even if we don’t come to a definite conclusion, it’s great to hear everyone’s ideas and for me personally, I love learning as much as I can about the badges and the Sentinels of Liberty club.

One thing that I’d like to add… although production of the badges ceased in 1942-43, there was no official end to the club. Therefore it’s been my personal belief that the current keepers of these badges make up the modern incarnation of the Sentinels of Liberty and are it’s modern day members! Kind of a neat way to think about it! I’ve always liked that these badges are a real, tangible connection to an otherwise fictional but still awesome character!

Lastly, here’s my ad page from Cap #5 showing the final badge design and essentially being a recruitment tool to draw in more membership. It’s very reminiscent of the “Uncle Sam Wants You” posters used for military recruitment.

NerV posted what was effectively a "Club ending" ad on the first page of this thread...

Edited April 20, 2022 by pemart1966

[HistoryBuffalo]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:58 PM, pemart1966 said:

NerV posted what was effectively a "Club ending" ad on the first page of this thread...

Right, I see what you are saying, and I know that production of the badges was canceled, however, the club and existing memberships were never canceled nor was it disbanded. Just my personal thoughts. I felt it was neat to think about the club that way, as something continuous.

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 11:05 PM, SkoBuffs99 said:

Right, I see what you are saying, and I know that production of the badges was canceled, however, the club and existing memberships were never canceled nor was it disbanded. Just my personal thoughts. I felt it was neat to think about the club that way, as something continuous.

...and I now see what you were saying.   but the ad posted on page 1 and the end of the war made it redundant...

Edited April 20, 2022 by pemart1966

[sfcityduck]

Someone can check this and confirm, but as best as I can tell the first house ad showing the right badge and membership card design was in CA 4  -- which is consistent with badges first rolling out in April or May, I think.. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[pemart1966]

On 4/19/2022 at 11:34 PM, sfcityduck said:

Someone can check this and confirm, but as best as I can tell the first house ad showing the right badge and membership card design was in CA 4  -- which is consistent with badges first rolling out in April or May, I think.. 

I did some more checking using the M Masterworks soft cover of CA 1-4 and Comics Online SO that means that what's in the original comic books may not align with my source material.  What did I find?

1.  CA 2 - The house ad is addressed "To every one of the thousands of red-blooded young Americans who so willingly volunteered to join Captain America's great army of spy smashers!"   This tells me that the club was well under way BEFORE the release of CA 2.

The same ad says in part that "To those of you who have not yet received your badges, they are on their way and it won't be long now --"  This tells me that some badges were indeed shipped out PRIOR to the release of CA 2.

2.  CA 4 does not show the "right" badge but CA 5 does.

If we accept this information to be true, AND given that we have had no membership cards surface that are numbered under 10000 - is it possible - not probable, but possible - that there was a different badge for say the first 10000 members; that this version was subsequently changed to the one that is known; and that an example of this different version has yet to surface?  Keep in mind that the "Thank You" card has just recently become known.

--------------------------------------

3. CA 7 - the House Ad states that Charter Memberships will be sent to every club with more than 15 members and that "deeds that deserve special attention" would receive a "gold certificate of merit".  

4.  CA 8 - says that they are working "day and night" to fill the charters.

5.  CA 11 - says that they've run out of charters for the third time and that they're printing them up.

It would seem that a lot of these certificates were printed.  Have any examples of either the Charter or the Gold Certificate of Merit ever surfaced?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:49 AM, pemart1966 said:

 

1.  CA 2 - The house ad is addressed "To every one of the thousands of red-blooded young Americans who so willingly volunteered to join Captain America's great army of spy smashers!"   This tells me that the club was well under way BEFORE the release of CA 2.

The same ad says in part that "To those of you who have not yet received your badges, they are on their way and it won't be long now --"  This tells me that some badges were indeed shipped out PRIOR to the release of CA 2.

 

I interpret that ad the opposite of yours.  The cynical attorney who questions witnesses in me views the statement as a classically obtuse way of saying that badges have not yet shipped but will ship soon.  It's a recognition of shipping delay.  I really doubt that there was an earlier differently designed badge, the best evidence being that none of have ever appeared, and it would have been an unncessary, expensive and delay inducing change.

As to your other points, can you post a pic of the house ad in CA 4?  I'd read that CA 4 had the right badge pictured.

Your question about the Charter and Gold Certificate of Merit is a really good one.  I have a vague recollection of reading about them previously.  Hakes might know the answer.  I'll look around when I have time.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

I noticed in a 2017 thread on this topic here that "Detective35" bought the Von Hake set from Harry Matesky's collection.  He said Harry had "upgraded" the membership card.  I think that means that the Von Hake membership card was in Harry's collection and must still exist.  It would be helpful to know that membership number.