Hesitant and Reluctant to Buy Raw Silver Age 2 2

[TheBigJ]

Greetings,

I've been burned several times buying so-called high grade silvers. received books, but when graded, found to have been trimmed.(Avengers 53 and Flash 140) . To say I was disappointed would be an under statement.

Didn't fall for the "you get what you pay for" trap. Paid FMV for these books, just wasn't aware of trim. Not saying dealer was either. 

Purchased a IH181, received book, was missing MVS, but since my skills could detect a CUTOUT from a page, returned book for a full refund.

Perhaps it's my own fault for not having knowledge of how to ID trimming, restoration of books upon receipt Then perhaps I could have address with seller.

Any tips on identifying trimmed and or restored books would be appreciated? 

Regardless,, it's led to be extremely hesitant to by so called HG raw books. Which is a shame as I like to actually read the book(would'a thunk it) as opposed to buying slab, crack, read and re-sub- No! Guess I could settle for  a reprint, again -No.

Regards

 

[piper]

I’ve had good luck buying on the boards both raw and slabbed books.

[pemart1966]

I would ask the seller before any purchase what his/her policy is should the book be found to be trimmed/restored etc.  If you don't like it then you just walk away.

Usually those issues will become known when the book is graded.  Those details (e.g. what's your recourse should you pay to have a book graded and it comes back restored/trimmed) should be finalized as well with the seller before purchase.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by pemart1966

[SECollector]

Being outside of the US and basically only able to buy books on-line this is a big issue for me. Thats why I buy only CGC books for high $ SA books - I would just not feel comfortable spending four or five figures for books without some form of widely accepted 3rd party review / opinion. With that said, I have through the years bought raw 3-figures SA books from Metropolis / CC and a couple of others reputable sellers and never had an issue. I would probably never do it however through a random eBay seller.

With that said, I once bought a raw ASM 129 from a local FB group, that turned out to be my keeper CGC 9.2 copy, but it felt right at the moment and the price was too good to pass, but not too good to be true, so maybe I should do it more often 

[Pantodude]

I would echo what has already been said about big books, prefering the peace of mind that comes with slabs.  It's not just about avoiding issues like undisclosed/unknown trimming, CT, etc.  Bill Gates aside, buyers might acquire a single copy of a key and move on to other want-list items before upgrading anything or doubling  up.  For that single copy of a key, you might want to make sure you are "stuck" with a book you like. 

Especially if the buyer has quirky or ambitious parameters, for example, focusing on key books in the top 25% or 50% of the universal population.  Whether the book is a 6.0 or 5.5 could make all the difference for such a buyer.  Depending on the type of buyer you are, slabs appear to be the way to go even if we are talking about trusted sellers and/or experienced buyers, especially for those books bordering a pivotal grade. 

Imagine having bought a raw key near blue FMV before 2019 and discovering only now it was trimmed.  With how keys have appreciated, if a universal grade is a must, I expect one would be very upset to have to hunt down the same book now.  So only slabs for me for key books, with few exceptions (like rare price variants for SA/BA keys....can't be too picky or you may wait a life time!), and raws are ok for everything else (although I still prefer slabs).     

Edited April 26, 2021 by Pantodude

[KCOComics]

A few thoughts on this. 

The boards are a great community for buying raw. You form relationships with the board members and if resto is missed its generally an honest mistake. 

Ebay is tough. There is a list of notorious sellers on eBay I would steer clear of, but I generally won't buy raw from ebay. 

As for trimming detection, it's tricky. A few tips: 

1) look for inconsistencies on the edge of the cover.  Most older comics won't have razor straight edges. They've been handled.  And usually trimming isn't the entire edge,  but rather a small section that was messy. So you'll see one section look unnaturally straight. 

2)  look where the cover is much neater than the internal pages behind it. This is a big tell.  The cover should take the brunt of the wear. So the edges shouldn't be inconsistently sharp compared to the internal pages.

3) any jagged cuts where scissor use is apparent. 

4) if you go through all this and you just aren't sure,  you can measure.  

 

 

This is a Hulk 1 I bought raw through the boards. I knew it was trimmed when I bought it, but before slabbing I took pictures. 

You can see that top edge just goes in an unnatural way. And it gets real straight and neat while the rest of edge isn't that sharp. 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by KCOComics

[Venomous72]

If I am dropping more than a few hundred on a book I will get graded every time.  I get way too nervous about restoration.

[Westy Steve]

One way to spot restoration is look for how fresh the edge of the cover is compared to the paper or other edges of the cover.  Paper oxidizes.  Suppose that a book was trimmed yesterday, but only on the top.  Then you'd expect the trim cut to expose fresh(er) paper on the top of the book compared to the sides and the bottom. 

This doesn't work with an old trim, or if they trim everywhere, but it's one more tool in your toolkit. 

[Venomous72]

I saw a post the other day on the Hero Restoration instagram, and he mentioned that this book he did (Batman 1) 'was trimmed, now not'

Can someone...explain?

[badback83]

1 hour ago, Venomous72 said:

I saw a post the other day on the Hero Restoration instagram, and he mentioned that this book he did (Batman 1) 'was trimmed, now not'

Can someone...explain?

I believe he said in the comments that leaf casting corrected the paper loss from the trimming.

[Venomous72]

1 hour ago, DocHoppus182 said:

I believe he said in the comments that leaf casting corrected the paper loss from the trimming.

This sounds like witchcraft. 
 

So would that no longer be viewed as trimmed or a restoration item by CGC? 

[badback83]

21 minutes ago, Venomous72 said:

This sounds like witchcraft. 
 

So would that no longer be viewed as trimmed or a restoration item by CGC? 

CGC would drop the trimming from the label.  I’m assuming it falls under the “pieces added” part of the label.

[KCOComics]

53 minutes ago, Venomous72 said:

This sounds like witchcraft. 
 

So would that no longer be viewed as trimmed or a restoration item by CGC? 

Right, it would still be restored or conserved.  It probably does improve the value. Trimming tends to have the greatest impact on value. 

[Mmehdy]

it might cost more, but buying CGC graded books in the long run is much better, I would avoid it over say 25 bucks.

[Happy_Thorsday]

I have bought hundreds of raw silver age books from the vendors I saw recommended over and over on the boards here. Maybe I am lucky but I have had all the books come back in the grade range the vendors posted or higher. A few times I even doubted how high the vendors listed certain grades only to have them back in the posted grade . The only time I have gotten burned was purchasing from a vendor at a show with a few books coming back CT, or course afterwards I looked up "CGC forum _VendorsName_" on google and sure enough the vendor had known issues. If you want to buy raw books I would suggest looking off of Ebay, even graded books I have bought there have shown up with broken slabs 

[Ltpink2002]

I typically only purchase raw books from reputable dealers. No one is perfect, but if the dealer takes care of you, then I have no issues buying the books raw. The vast majority of my raw GA, SA and BA book were purchased from Richard Evans at Bedrock City Comics.  Of all the books submitted to CGC, one came back with slightly brittle paper and the other with some color touch.  Richard took care of both books fairly and without any hassle.   

[Math Teacher]

On 4/25/2021 at 1:54 PM, pemart1966 said:

I would ask the seller before any purchase what his/her policy is should the book be found to be trimmed/restored etc.  If you don't like it then you just walk away.

Usually those issues will become known when the book is graded.  Those details (e.g. what's your recourse should you pay to have a book graded and it comes back restored/trimmed) should be finalized as well with the seller before purchase.

 

 

I agree with your idea, but there's a small problem. Suppose you buy a book off Ebay for $400, and you then submit it to CGC. It will probably take 2 - 3 days to get there. It will take 2 - 3 weeks to be marked as received, and the current TAT for Economy is 79 days. It will take another 2 - 3 days to be returned to you. Even with the best case scenario, it will be a minimum of 97 days before you have the book in your hands again. I would be willing to bet that most sellers would not agree to letting you return a book after it has been in your possession for 3+ months. Most sellers have a 30-day return policy. Yes, you can work with PayPal or Ebay to get your money back, but I don't think that's really fair to the seller.

I am willing to buy raw books here. But I stick to just CGC (or the other company) when I buy on Ebay.

[the blob]

I don't buy raw books that would make any financial sense to have trimmed anymore, so that makes for less stress for me.

 

[the blob]

8 hours ago, the blob said:

I don't buy raw books that would make any financial sense to have trimmed anymore, so that makes for less stress for me.

 

That's not true come to think of it, last year I got into some bidding war and got stupid and paid over $100 for a book from a boardie who had a big run for sale on ebay. As it looked like it came out of the same collection with like 15 other books i bought I felt comfortable it had not been messed with.

[pemart1966]

On 4/26/2021 at 6:53 PM, Math Teacher said:

I agree with your idea, but there's a small problem. Suppose you buy a book off Ebay for $400, and you then submit it to CGC. It will probably take 2 - 3 days to get there. It will take 2 - 3 weeks to be marked as received, and the current TAT for Economy is 79 days. It will take another 2 - 3 days to be returned to you. Even with the best case scenario, it will be a minimum of 97 days before you have the book in your hands again. I would be willing to bet that most sellers would not agree to letting you return a book after it has been in your possession for 3+ months. Most sellers have a 30-day return policy. Yes, you can work with PayPal or Ebay to get your money back, but I don't think that's really fair to the seller.

I am willing to buy raw books here. But I stick to just CGC (or the other company) when I buy on Ebay.

It may not be fair to the seller but it IS a two way street.

It may be down to the point that it just isn't worth the risk of buying high end Silver Age raw.  Too much risk with little or no recourse should it found to have been doctored... 

Edited April 29, 2021 by pemart1966