Marvel comic art with Stan Lee handwritten -script notes 0

[comicwiz]

This is pretty much what I understood the Marvel Method to be:

Lee devised a method that began with a single page outline for the plot. Perhaps Hulk got angry. Or maybe Spider-Man learned a lesson about responsibility. Whatever it was, it would be outlined and constricted to a single page.

From there, the artist responsible for that issue would take that plot and decide how to depict it on the page. Instead of being told exactly what to do with a line by line --script, Lee empowered his artists to think creatively, and use their best judgment to map out his one-page plot into a series of comic book panels.

Once the artist had finished drawing the comic, Lee would look over the pages and insert dialogue to match the artist’s depictions. Since he was working off a finished product, the dialogue portion took a fraction of the time that it normally would have when writers would create dialogue blindly.

Based on what I've seen, there have been some variations of this, perhaps where the artist drew right on the page (with the direction above the cell, as was shown by @Grant Turner up above) which went a little beyond just a plain plot summary and becoming more like storyboard sequence instruction. In other cases, he would return with markup to emphasize something that needed to be reworked or revised. And that this all happened on the same page (sometimes with doodles or visual explanation on the back of the page as well), otherwise pretty much what is stated above.

Edited April 28, 2021 by comicwiz

[davidtere]

In case anyone was interested...

Here's an example of Stan Lee editing a Jack Kirby story. Lee asked the production person(s) to 'switch' the panels. I believe the blue marker is Lee, as it is written directly over the barely visible Kirby pencil notes (which give the story direction). This is a four pager from Rawhide Kid # 43 entitled 'The Brass Buttons Kid' and is credited collaboration to both Lee and Kirby (not writer and artist as was often done during this time period - 1963). Makes me think that this story was a quick filler story idea, plotted and drawn by Kirby, then turned over to Lee for the dialogue. 

I'll let you make the decision on whether or not the editing is effective. While I agree that it makes some sense, it shows Brass Buttons with his gun still in his waistband (panel 2) while the panel before (panel 1) clearly shows him shooting at the antagonist. 

[comicwiz]

14 hours ago, davidtere said:

In case anyone was interested...

Here's an example of Stan Lee editing a Jack Kirby story. Lee asked the production person(s) to 'switch' the panels. I believe the blue marker is Lee, as it is written directly over the barely visible Kirby pencil notes (which give the story direction). This is a four pager from Rawhide Kid # 43 entitled 'The Brass Buttons Kid' and is credited collaboration to both Lee and Kirby (not writer and artist as was often done during this time period - 1963). Makes me think that this story was a quick filler story idea, plotted and drawn by Kirby, then turned over to Lee for the dialogue. 

I'll let you make the decision on whether or not the editing is effective. While I agree that it makes some sense, it shows Brass Buttons with his gun still in his waistband (panel 2) while the panel before (panel 1) clearly shows him shooting at the antagonist. 

I have a page with blue markup from '71, but it looks more like blue grease pencil or dry (aka china) marker, it runs along the right edge and gives instruction on stat placement (a comic one of the main characters is reading is Amazing Spider-Man #93). It's in Stan Lee's handwriting, and matches all the other notes on the page.

[bluechip]

As a "process geek" I have always found it interesting to look at the revisions and margin notes, etc.  I remember seeing Stan's doodles on the backs and in the margins of several pieces of art.  FF 3 comes to mind, but I don't have a scan.  Found a couple others, though.  Amazing Spider-man 96 cover prelim stat with a very rough drawing of the Goblin pasted over it.  And the back of a Thor page (same page someone pictured above, wherein Thor raps with some hippies.  Stan didn't care for Kirby's depiction of the hippies, which he though looked "too old" (per the margin notes) and then apparently doodled samples on the back as a guide for Herb Trimpe, who did the final hippie images, perhaps because Kirby was busy and/or because Trimpe was young and considered one of the more "with it" artists in the bullpen.    

Edited April 29, 2021 by bluechip

[comicwiz]

18 hours ago, bluechip said:

As a "process geek" I have always found it interesting to look at the revisions and margin notes, etc.  I remember seeing Stan's doodles on the backs and in the margins of several pieces of art.  FF 3 comes to mind, but I don't have a scan.  Found a couple others, though.  Amazing Spider-man 96 cover prelim stat with a very rough drawing of the Goblin pasted over it.  And the back of a Thor page (same page someone pictured above, wherein Thor raps with some hippies.  Stan didn't care for Kirby's depiction of the hippies, which he though looked "too old" (per the margin notes) and then apparently doodled samples on the back as a guide for Herb Trimpe, who did the final hippie images, perhaps because Kirby was busy and/or because Trimpe was young and considered one of the more "with it" artists in the bullpen.    

On one of the pages I have, it has the doodles on the back, but they aren't anywhere as good as the ones on yours. In the same way he instructs where the stat should be, I also have another page where he instructs where his signature should be placed. My thinking is he signed his name, but then worried the opening panel was going to be too crammed, so he wrote in the instruction after it was all done, and they cut it out from another board he signed and pasted it neatly on so it would fit. It actually seems hilarious that he took the time to not only write that in, but to have cut it out like an important art element of the page. I guess giving "credit" where its due was an important part of the process for Stan Lee.

Edited April 30, 2021 by comicwiz

[bluechip]

4 hours ago, comicwiz said:

On one of the pages I have, it has the doodles on the back, but they aren't anywhere as good as the ones on yours. In the same way he instructs where the stat should be, I also have another page where he instructs where his signature should be placed. My thinking is he signed his name, but then worried the opening panel was going to be too crammed, so he wrote in the instruction after it was all done, and they cut it out from another board he signed and pasted it neatly on so it would fit. It actually seems hilarious that he took the time to not only write that in, but to have cut it out like an important art element of the page. I guess giving "credit" where its due was an important part of the process for Stan Lee.

That I would like to see.

 

 

[bluechip]

On 4/28/2021 at 2:21 PM, comicwiz said:

This is pretty much what I understood the Marvel Method to be:

Lee devised a method that began with a single page outline for the plot. Perhaps Hulk got angry. Or maybe Spider-Man learned a lesson about responsibility. Whatever it was, it would be outlined and constricted to a single page.

From there, the artist responsible for that issue would take that plot and decide how to depict it on the page. Instead of being told exactly what to do with a line by line ----script, Lee empowered his artists to think creatively, and use their best judgment to map out his one-page plot into a series of comic book panels.

Once the artist had finished drawing the comic, Lee would look over the pages and insert dialogue to match the artist’s depictions. Since he was working off a finished product, the dialogue portion took a fraction of the time that it normally would have when writers would create dialogue blindly.

Based on what I've seen, there have been some variations of this, perhaps where the artist drew right on the page (with the direction above the cell, as was shown by @Grant Turner up above) which went a little beyond just a plain plot summary and becoming more like storyboard sequence instruction. In other cases, he would return with markup to emphasize something that needed to be reworked or revised. And that this all happened on the same page (sometimes with doodles or visual explanation on the back of the page as well), otherwise pretty much what is stated above.

I have seen margin notes that clearly indicate the pages changed hands multiple times, going back and forth between Stan and the artist (and other production people) like a memo chain, with Stan literally asking questions and the artist answering them, all in the margins.

Edited April 30, 2021 by bluechip

[bluechip]

It could be said that "The Marvel Method" made the creation of comic book stories more like the creation of movies and TV shows, which were already more collaborative in the 60s and have become more collaborative in recent years.   

And, as in films and TV, credits will not always reflect every single contribution.  Directors change lines and action all the time, but must prove they have made enormous changes in order to claim a writing credit.  And no matter how much a writer's description indicates directorial choices (be it a simple line that reads "dolly to close up" or a page of meticulously choreographed action) the writer will never get a director's credit.  Just as an actor may recommend half the other actors who are hired but that will not earn them a credit for Casting.  

So the credits are generally decided beforehand, which is good to the extent it incentivizes collaboration and disincentivizes meaningless changes in the name of credit-grabbing. 

Sometimes, of course, it just evolves naturally to the point where one person eventually does so much that their credit evolves as well.  Which is how the FF credits evolved from "Written by--" and "Drawn by--" to "by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" and, even more simply, "Stan & Jack"