Micro-trimming question on an ASM 9 0

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

One thing to keep in mind is that pressing can result in a bit of "shrinkage" to the cover...but I'm still concerned about the top and right edge of your book.    

Yes. Both edges do exhibit causes for concern; certainly to enough of a degree to warrant submission. 

[James J Johnson]

8 hours ago, pickycollector said:

I am a little concerned about the lack of overlap on the upper edge and fear the possibility of micro-trimming; however there is overlap at the bottom edge which is usually not the case on a SA book so maybe that explains.

What do you guys think?

Also, anyone knows how to accurately detect micro-trimming? That is so much harder than to detect pressing, not sure how CGC can do it with certainty

Are you sure about purchasing this before CGC opened its doors? I ask because if you didn't mention that your ownership preceded CGC, I would be almost certain that this book exhibits signs of having once been slabbed. 

[pickycollector]

20 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Are you sure about purchasing this before CGC opened its doors? I ask because if you didn't mention that your ownership preceded CGC, I would be almost certain that this book exhibits signs of having once been slabbed. 

I am absolutely certain that I bought it before the creation of CGC, I still have a good memory of the time of purchase of my books, especially the big ones..

[theCapraAegagrus]

Way too close to call on the internet.

[The Lions Den]

18 hours ago, pickycollector said:

I am absolutely certain that I bought it before the creation of CGC, I still have a good memory of the time of purchase of my books, especially the big ones..

It wasn't from a guy named Jason Ewert, was it? Just wondering...  

Edited May 21, 2021 by The Lions Den
Spelling

[James J Johnson]

6 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

It wasn't from a guy named Jason Ewart, was it? Just wondering...  

Jason Ewart is not a comic dealer.  He's a world renowned proctologist who was so successful in treating anal warts that he now heads the entire E-Commerce division of Compound W. 

Jason Ewert is the guy you're referring to!  

Edited May 21, 2021 by James J Johnson

[pickycollector]

Not bought from Jason Ewert but who knows the past history of the books you buy as they may have travelled through different hands before reaching yours.

Speaking of Jason Ewert, I know about the micro-trimming scandal he was involved with CGC books but was he also known for micro-trimming books before the creation of CGC?

[The Lions Den]

2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Jason Ewart is not a comic dealer.  He's a world renowned proctologist who was so successful in treating anal warts that he now heads the entire E-Commerce division of Compound W. 

Jason Ewert is the guy you're referring to!  

I stand corrected, sir. But after I thought about it, I can see certain similarities between the two...  

[James J Johnson]

25 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I stand corrected, sir. But after I thought about it, I can see certain similarities between the two...  

Well, I'm glad that together, pooling our forum resources, we were able to shed light on matters that are typically at the end of the tunnel.  .

[James J Johnson]

1 minute ago, The Lions Den said:

As always, I'm honored and humbled to help you explore the darker recesses of human nature...

-A very wise man once said: "One must forego the self to obtain total spiritual creaminess, and avoid the chewy chunks of degradation".. 

No truer are these words of wisdom than in successfully navigating our chosen hobby! .

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, The Lions Den said:

I stand corrected, sir. But after I thought about it, I can see certain similarities between the two...  

Yep. Micro-trimming comics and proctology. The only two areas I can think of where tunnel vision is an asset. Wisecracks asside. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by James J Johnson

[pickycollector]

If I remember correctly, it was a FF #3 which started the Ewert scandal, has anyone kept pictures or scans of the book (or any other book) before and after micro-trimming?

[namisgr]

I agree with those suggesting the top edge might be trimmed, and doesn't have the look of the right or bottom edges.  I suppose CGC could give you their opinion, using the methods for trimming detection that they don't reveal publicly (rightly, I believe, to discourage the practice).  But being a guy that had CGC grade a comic I bought off the rack brand new as having been trimmed on one edge, it's clear that even their best efforts at detection are imperfect.

Edited May 25, 2021 by namisgr

[James J Johnson]

4 hours ago, pickycollector said:

If I remember correctly, it was a FF #3 which started the Ewert scandal, has anyone kept pictures or scans of the book (or any other book) before and after micro-trimming?

Micro-trimming has become the term immediately associated with and to describe the type of cut performed on the books submitted to CGC by Ewert (not Ewart, the who used different methods to remedy anal warts, God bless him)  For decades prior to Ewert's submissions, people had already been trimming comics, as by that time, as evidenced by the increasing number of trimmed purple label books that were not submitted by Ewert. 

Now anyone can cut paper with a blade, it doesn't take much talent, but like surgeons, some can become more skillful at it than others. Things like manual dexterity, eye/hand coordination, control, These assets at a higher than average level will help. But comics were not cut by artists, those that honed their ability to cut to near perfection. They were cut by a machine that is no longer around.That aside, I've seen trimmed comics that look like an 8 year old cut the edge with a scissors, and others that were incredibly skillful in execution, remember, if you're cutting the entire edge, it can't look like a guillotine chooped off the page ends, their is a progression and recession of end length to and from the centerfold; a fan like shape due to how these are assembled and stapled. 

I've seen cuts like All_Things_Comics standard ordure, where a Good condition comic has 1/2" hacked off every edge in a failed effort to cut off as much defect as possible. And I've seen the "micro-trimmed" Ewert submission edges at the opposite end of the hacking spectrum. Micro-trim implies a small trim, as if that's all that was being done. My belief is that a small trim alone is an incomplete assessment of the manner in which Ewert's submissions were being cut. Yes. They were micro-trimmed, but there was more. My belief is that they were micro-trimmed in a certain way, that way already being used in the high-end sports card market for years prior to Ewert's submissions. IMO, micro-trimming alone would have been flagged by CGC right at the onset. 

 

[zzutak]

2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

I've seen trimmed comics that look like an 8 year old cut the edge with a scissors.

Me:  The right edge of this book has been trimmed! 

Seller:  Yeah, it was too wide to fit in the bag. 

Me: 

[pickycollector]

I brought the book home and took some close-up pictures of the upper edge

[Randall Dowling]

@pickycollector I've been collecting long enough to have made the mistake of assigning "trimmed" to a book that wasn't and having declared that a book was as printed, only to discover that it had been trimmed.  Unfortunately, even the best photos won't allow me to provide a definitive answer but I've come to the following position- if I think it may be trimmed, it is.  Kind of like where there is doubt, there is no doubt.  

It's a beautiful book and trying to replace with a better copy would be a small fortune at this point.  And selling it would always be a problematic position as either you present it as trimmed and it takes a massive hit in value or you claim that it isn't and may be wrong.  It's a tough place to be.  When he was still working for CGC, I would have recommended showing it to Borock and getting his opinion as he's probably one of the best at spotting this sort of thing.

FWIW, I have a few books that fall into similar categories and I've just resolved to keep them until I die.  

[pickycollector]

It's a tough call indeed. I have seen books that were obviously trimmed or micro-trimmed but this one is tough to call as the close-up pictures now show better since there is a bit of overlap and the upper edge is not "razor-sharp" like a classic trim case.

Looking at the CGC 9.0 currently on Comiclink (and pictured on the previous page), it does not have the gorgeous spine mine has and finding a better copy with no question mark will be prohibitive indeed.

Of course, I could send it to CGC to be sure but it will take months, will cost money and my book will be in an ugly third generation slab with Newton rings which will just motivate me to crack it out to get it back to its actual raw state if it's a blue label as I want to keep it. Not counting also the risk of loss or damage during all that process. I would rather skip all those steps just to have a micro-trimming check-up but is that service offered?

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by pickycollector

[Hamlet]

1 hour ago, pickycollector said:

Of course, I could send it to CGC to be sure but it will take months, will cost money and my book will be in an ugly third generation slab with Newton rings which will just motivate me to crack it out to get it back to its actual raw state if it's a blue label as I want to keep it. Not counting also the risk of loss or damage during all that process. I would rather skip all those steps just to have a micro-trimming check-up but is that service offered?

 

The thing is, you won’t really be sure regardless of what CGC says, since they can very well be wrong on something this subtle.  The only reason to send it to CGC if you don’t want it in a slab is to sell it. I would keep it, as it is a beautiful book, and then slab it if you ever want to sell it.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, pickycollector said:

It's a tough call indeed. I have seen books that were obviously trimmed or micro-trimmed but this one is tough to call as the close-up pictures now show better since there is a bit of overlap and the upper edge is not "razor-sharp" like a classic trim case.

Looking at the CGC 9.0 currently on Comiclink (and pictured on the previous page), it does not have the gorgeous spine mine has and finding a better copy with no question mark will be prohibitive indeed.

Of course, I could send it to CGC to be sure but it will take months, will cost money and my book will be in an ugly third generation slab with Newton rings which will just motivate me to crack it out to get it back to its actual raw state if it's a blue label as I want to keep it. Not counting also the risk of loss or damage during all that process. I would rather skip all those steps just to have a micro-trimming check-up but is that service offered?

 

I could probably call it within 5% of certainty, one way or the other, if you could post pics better focused on the corners and immediate 2 inches of edges from the corner tip, both sides, front and back. The same shots of the bottom edge, front and back would help me get even closer to certainty.