Who sold all of that Silver Age Original Artwork from Marvel? 3 3

[Aman619]

And, let’s flip it around.  Say he had been more employee friendly etc.  gave everyone a piece of their creations.  You name it!  Now he’s starting over on a low budget.  How many of those same creators will be generous and sign on at reduced rates to help Goodman get going?   Of course Kirby I hear you saying, but now he’s a partner at Marvel! Sorry Martin, no can do.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, mrc said:

I'm afraid you simply don't seem to have any idea how the real world works.......pure hyperbole.

I'm afraid I do. 

Believe it or not, back in the days of no child labor laws, there were people saying... "This isn't right" and people like you saying "I'm afraid you simply don't seem to have any idea how the real world works."

Just because people do it, doesn't make it right, or just, or just an accepted part of the 'real world'.

Integrity isn't hyperbole.

And Marvel's Method went by the wayside, primarily because someone at DC Comics decided to start doing right by creators, and it changed the industry. 

I'd rather make an honest deal and be able to look someone in the eye, than to cheat someone and be a millionaire. That's just me. I'd rather split it and be able to look myself in the face each day. I just don't understand the mentality of "I got mine" (i.e.I screwed someone over to get it).

You do I guess. Good luck with that.

[Prince Namor]

10 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

And, let’s flip it around.  Say he had been more employee friendly etc.  gave everyone a piece of their creations.  You name it!  Now he’s starting over on a low budget.  How many of those same creators will be generous and sign on at reduced rates to help Goodman get going?   Of course Kirby I hear you saying, but now he’s a partner at Marvel! Sorry Martin, no can do.

You mean how Image Comics does it now? 

After falling apart in the 2000's, they changed to the model you describe above - the creators own their own work and make larger profits from it - they now rank as the strongest #3 comics publisher in North America that we've ever seen. They're profitable and their business model has proven to be a success.

They didn't go out of business. They thrived. 

Of course there wasn't 'one man' who 'took the risk' and deserved to be a billionaire in the story, so it might not appeal to today's generation, but Image certainly puts out some of the most creative American comics on the market today vs the same convoluted crud Marvel and DC have been making for years. 

Some of the top talent in the business work for them and love it.

The artists own their own work. My God, what a novel idea - Who'd have thought that would work?

Uh... the music industry? The book industry? Hollywood?

[KCOComics]

2 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

He wasn't. He made a fortune. He just didn't care about comics and made one seriously bad business decision that almost put that division of his company out of business. Until Jack Kirby saved him.

A lot of publishers went out of business, but plenty of others were making money and thrived after the Code went into effect. 

DC Comics went from about 25 titles a month in the early to mid-50's to over 30 a month in the late 50's. By 1960, Superman was still averaging 800,000 copies sold per issue - Batman 500,000, with 5 other Superman titles averaging half a million copies per month.

Dell Comics comics had 45 monthly titles in by the late 50's (up from 25 a mont pre-code) and in 1960, both Uncle Scrooge and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories averaged a MILLION copies per month. 

Archie Comics expanded after the Code, adding Archie's Pals n Gals, Katy's Keene's Fashion Book (a 2nd Katy Keene title), Pat the Brat, Lil Jinx, Little Archie, and continued pumping out Annuals and off shoots on a regular basis. By 1960, Archie Comics was still averaging almost half a million copies per issue.

Atlas/Marvel was just fine after the Code. Their MOO had always been to rip off and duplicate what others had done - and in the bull market had as many as 35-40 titles a month. By 1956/1957, TWO YEARS into the Code they were still churning out a much as 40 books a month! Until Goodman made his deal and it dropped to EIGHT in the summer of 1957.

The SPECIFIC wording of the Comics Code, schemed together by these men, made their business' thrive after they put many others out of work. Goodman just made a bonehead move and it cost him. Until Jack Kirby saved him.

Stan worked his off in those days. He didn't work 7 days a week, 10 hours a day at the drawing board, but he worked hard. He had a wife who demanded a luxurious lifestyle. And he wasn't a writer, at least not at that point - he wrote dialogue for artists' work, while editing and brainstorming ideas. 

And his regular college campus appearances didn't start until after Ditko left and he was made to be seen as the force behind the creative side of Marvel in the infamous Tribune article. 

Honesty and good will are easy to apply to any generation. Goodman and Lee were saved by Kirby's talent. Plain and simple. They'd be a footnote in history if Jack Kirby hadn't returned to Marvel in the summer of 1958.

Marvel put out ZERO books on the newsstand in August 1958. Joe Maneely, the only workhorse Stan still had to draw the books had died and Marvel was looking as if it was going to close shop.

Jack Kirby walking in the door changed all of that. 

Yes they eventually did. After the news of the first Superman movie in the mid70's (and stories of their poverty filled lives, and Shuster going blind reached the news), DC Comics set them up with a yearly pay, proper medical benefits and future credits in all use of the character - in exchange for them never again contesting ownership. Marvel would follow up on this with Jack... oh about 40 years later.

Kane made lots of money off of his deal with DC and STILL has his name on the character as creator to this day. Bill Finger got the screwed, but Kane made a nice living and a celebrity status from his deal. He's vilified for it. He 'Stan Lee'd' his situation and shafted the real creative force behind the character and his stories, but at least he could draw. Maybe he just wasn't as likable as Stan. 

Yes, Goodman screwed them all. All created outside of Marvel Comics - all stolen by Goodman.

They'd have been a footnote in the industry if not for Jack Kirby. They owed him more than what was a fair.

A real man would've recognized it and made it right.

This whole 'business is business' bunch of bull and 'he should've known' is in direct contrast to the way the people on this forum act when someone buys a comic collection for a song and makes a fortune on it - they all criticize him and point fingers and pretend their all holy... what is the difference? 

You rip off an old lady for an Action Comics #1 sale or you rip off the greatest creative force in the history of comics.... it's all the same thing to me. 

A man's word is a man's word. A friend's word is a friend's word. A handshake should mean something. What's right is right. Geneivat da'at!!!

Honestly, I don't disagree with anything you said... Marvel doesn't happen without Jack. And when you look at the distribution of work and creativity that created the empire, there is no doubt in my mind Jack should have gotten rights, residuals, ownership.... Some way to ensure he never leaves the company and is financially secure for life.

Sadly that didn't happen. 

I also think for all of Jack's greatness he needed Stan. As a collaborative partner and as a marketer to get the most out of those characters. They were partners. 

And I'm not saying Jack wasn't Special without Stan. Jacks career before 1957 spoke for itself.... Besides Cap the guy created the romance genre. He was an industry legend before Ben Grimm lit his first cigar.   I'm just saying from 1961 to about 1965, Stan and Jack did something really really special that neither of them could have accomplished alone. 

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, mrc said:

I'm afraid you simply don't seem to have any idea how the real world works.......pure hyperbole.

Yup. In the real world, you should always take advantage of everybody as much as you can.  'em all!

[KCOComics]

2 hours ago, Aman619 said:

yeah, but thats a good point about human nature:  that we all scream bloody murder when someone "steals" an Action 1 etc from the unknowing, yet argue about "business as usual" when its the comics business dealings in question.   But theres "fair" and theres reality.  Goodman was always the boss.  If Kirby didnt show up to save him, as you say (twice!) he would have kept going and things would have turned out differently, better (prob not) but somewhat worse, or Marvel would have closed shop.  Who knows?  Bosses dont GIVE AWAY equity --- even today --- its just not done out of the goodness of their hearts. Only when forced to, or its makes business sense.

All his life in comics Goodman operated by the set of rules that existed.  They all did. Its really silly to point and curse them for not being Mother Teresa to the employees. It may suck, but we are animals in a darwinian struggle for survival/success.  Stones and glass houses.

100% agree. 

[Prince Namor]

I hadn't looked at it in a long time, but I just checked out icv2's Top 20 Graphic Novel sales for the month of May - the 14 of the first 15* of the top sellers are all Creator Owned work - 10 of the 14 from Image Comics and DC doesn't show up until #16, Marvel until #18.

https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/48488/top-20-graphic-novels-may-2021

It's not as heavy as that every month, but in general it's easy to see that Image is dominating the trade paperback market.

 

*The only one that isn't is an EC Collection from dark Horse. 

[Prince Namor]

4 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

Honestly, I don't disagree with anything you said... Marvel doesn't happen without Jack. And when you look at the distribution of work and creativity that created the empire, there is no doubt in my mind Jack should have gotten rights, residuals, ownership.... Some way to ensure he never leaves the company and is financially secure for life.

Yep. I agree.

4 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

Sadly that didn't happen. 

I also think for all of Jack's greatness he needed Stan. As a collaborative partner and as a marketer to get the most out of those characters. They were partners.

This may surprise some people, but I TOTALLY agree. (It's not as black and white as that, but in general)

Kirby's constant stream of consciousness creativity needed an editor. And sometimes a dialoguer, though I'm perfectly fine with his unique vernacular. 

4 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

And I'm not saying Jack wasn't Special without Stan. Jacks career before 1957 spoke for itself.... Besides Cap the guy created the romance genre. He was an industry legend before Ben Grimm lit his first cigar.   I'm just saying from 1961 to about 1965, Stan and Jack did something really really special that neither of them could have accomplished alone. 

Agreed.

I always say - the Marvel Universe would never have been what it was without Stan Lee's part in it.

But it wouldn't have existed at all without Jack Kirby.

Stan couldn't have did it without Jack.

And Jack wouldn't have had THAT kind of crazy success without Stan. 

It's just a shame that Stan couldn't share in the overall success of it WITH Jack.

[KCOComics]

 

From a business standpoint, you generally get the most out of your employees when you take care of them.

Now obviously, that doesn't mean everyone can become millionaires, but there would have been ways to keep the talent happy. And Jack and Stan were unique situations given their contributions. So I do think Goodman was in the wrong. 

And honestly, who knows what would have happened if he kept Jack happy. Jack was withholding ideas that he eventually published with DC.  While the Fourth World never garnered the success of his Marvel creations, maybe with Stan and Roy they could have been better. Promoted better and intertwined into marvel's ever expensive galactic universe.  So taking care of Jack would have had benefits for marvel.  Sadly we'll never how much benefit. 

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, Aman619 said:

All his life in comics Goodman operated by the set of rules that existed.

Right. I'm sure he never did anything to get around the rules that applied to him while simultaneously applying the "rules" to those below him.

[kav]

3 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Kane made a nice living and a celebrity status from his deal. He's vilified for it. He 'Stan Lee'd' his situation and shafted the real creative force behind the character and his stories, but at least he could draw.

 

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, Aman619 said:

yeah, but thats a good point about human nature:  that we all scream bloody murder when someone "steals" an Action 1 etc from the unknowing, yet argue about "business as usual" when its the comics business dealings in question.   But theres "fair" and theres reality.  Goodman was always the boss.  If Kirby didnt show up to save him, as you say (twice!) he would have kept going and things would have turned out differently, better (prob not) but somewhat worse, or Marvel would have closed shop.  Who knows?  Bosses dont GIVE AWAY equity --- even today --- its just not done out of the goodness of their hearts. Only when forced to, or its makes business sense.

All his life in comics Goodman operated by the set of rules that existed.  They all did. Its really silly to point and curse them for not being Mother Teresa to the employees. It may suck, but we are animals in a darwinian struggle for survival/success.  Stones and glass houses.

Mother Theresa to the employees? Operated by a set of rules that existed?

Dude, you've been around a long time, and you've surely read some of these books out there, are you not aware of the guy that Martin Goodman was?

He was a THIEF. He was hide behind a door bully. He took other writers work, changed the names of the characters and changed the title and then claimed it for his own, publishing it in his pulps and magazines. THREE times he got sued for this, so no telling how many times he actually did it. 

He was a Jewish Captain of Industry who screwed over his own people - poor Jews just trying to earn a living, just so he could raise himself up to a higher standard of living. All of those original publishers were POS - the only one I respect was William Gaines, and they ran him out of business.

It was a different time. It was a different world. But Goodman was a special kind of slime ball. About the best I can say about him is he didn't (publicly anyway) rub shoulders with organized crime figures like they did at DC Comics.

If you get a chance read this:

[Prince Namor]

6 minutes ago, KCOComics said:

 

From a business standpoint, you generally get the most out of your employees when you take care of them.

Now obviously, that doesn't mean everyone can become millionaires, but there would have been ways to keep the talent happy. And Jack and Stan were unique situations given their contributions. So I do think Goodman was in the wrong. 

And honestly, who knows what would have happened if he kept Jack happy. Jack was withholding ideas that he eventually published with DC.  While the Fourth World never garnered the success of his Marvel creations, maybe with Stan and Roy they could have been better. Promoted better and intertwined into marvel's ever expensive galactic universe.  So taking care of Jack would have had benefits for marvel.  Sadly we'll never how much benefit. 

It could've been amazing to see what that work would've been under Stan's input.

[Aman619]

50 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Right. I'm sure he never did anything to get around the rules that applied to him while simultaneously applying the "rules" to those below him.

I clearly was talking about the one sided rules in place where owners take advantage of employees.  So no gotcha for you here. 

[Aman619]

46 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

Mother Theresa to the employees? Operated by a set of rules that existed?

Dude, you've been around a long time, and you've surely read some of these books out there, are you not aware of the guy that Martin Goodman was?

He was a THIEF. He was hide behind a door bully. He took other writers work, changed the names of the characters and changed the title and then claimed it for his own, publishing it in his pulps and magazines. THREE times he got sued for this, so no telling how many times he actually did it. 

He was a Jewish Captain of Industry who screwed over his own people - poor Jews just trying to earn a living, just so he could raise himself up to a higher standard of living. All of those original publishers were POS - the only one I respect was William Gaines, and they ran him out of business.

It was a different time. It was a different world. But Goodman was a special kind of slime ball. About the best I can say about him is he didn't (publicly anyway) rub shoulders with organized crime figures like they did at DC Comics.

If you get a chance read this:

I havent read everything, no.  The ones I have all had a point of view, and included a lot of hearsay.  So my comments here are from the standpoint of a boss as evil as you say Goodman was being just shades worse than all the other bosses who took advantage from their workers whose efforts were paying for the bosses beach house and shrimp cocktails.   Even the nice bosses far better than Goodman were selfish, that’s humanity now and forever.  

[Math Teacher]

On 6/17/2021 at 2:38 PM, Prince Namor said:

Yep. Also unknown are the promises made - and it's been suggested that they were made to Jack - during a day and age where a man's word meant something. Jack also felt that if he gave his all, and sold more books, the company couldn't help but want to reward him for it. Not the case. A thief like Goodman wasn't interested in people, only what he could take from them to make his own. And he taught Stanley very well.

Marvel's 'method' went by the way side... and their talent eventually dried up as well. Who wants to work for a company where they keep your creative ideas and don't recognize you for them?

Jack would create an idea, sometimes completely on his own. Sometimes with input from Stan, but never with a --script.

Jack would then put the story together through sequential art. Sometimes creating additional characters and taking the story in a different direction.

He'd then draw the entire thing with full pencils.

Write dialogue and captions in the margin.

Then do the cover.

Stan would then take it and put the dialogue in. 

Marvel could then license the art for cartoons or merchandise.

 

Jack would get paid only for drawing it.

Stan would get paid for writing it AND editing it, getting paid twice.

And Marvel would own it and be able to make money off of it forever. (Which Stan used as leverage for his own nest egg for decades)

 

What artist would want to continue to go on with THAT deal?

Ditko got out rather quickly - when he started doing all the work and not getting the extra pay - he was gone in a little over a year. Jack... Jack just couldn't conceive that Stan would screw him over.

 

Just think if Marvel had made Jack and Steve a REAL deal and let their imagination run wild while Stan continued to oversee the books and continued to dialogue them and promote them. The Marvel Age could've extended for another 10 years and we could've seen even greater works.

Instead it was Stan's petty ego and greed that got in the way of all of it.

Marvel owed Jack more than just his original art pages back.

The Marvel Age of Comics would've never been the same without Stan Lee - his promotion and editorial skill were unparalleled. 

But without Kirby, it would've never existed at all. 

I am not commenting about what you believe did or may have happened. You might want to read this book to back up your claims.

True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

 

[Aman619]

I’m sure he has was it.  It was last years new hot addition to the Stan/Jack saga. 

[Buzzetta]

[jjonahjameson11]

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

You mean how Image Comics does it now? 

After falling apart in the 2000's, they changed to the model you describe above - the creators own their own work and make larger profits from it - they now rank as the strongest #3 comics publisher in North America that we've ever seen. 

Ever?  Really?  Stronger than Archie or Fawcett or EC? 

Highly dubious.  

[Math Teacher]

16 hours ago, KCOComics said:

In 1964 Jack was probably getting paid more than any other comic artist, because he was Marvel comics at that time.

I also think that the reason he was getting paid more was because of his prodigious output. It's amazing how many pages he could draw in a month's time.

He had two monthly books that he worked on until he left, Fantastic Four and Thor. He drew the first eight issues of Avengers, the first seven issues of Ant-Man, the first eleven issues of X-Men, the first five issues of the Human Torch in Strange Tales, and the first seven issues of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos. He also contributed numerous covers to these series, as well as the Iron Man issues of Tales of Suspense. He was also doing layouts for other artists during this time.

If Jack Kirby was the highest paid artist of the 1960s, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, it was because he drew a tremendous number of pages each and every month.