Cameo Appearance Debate 1 1

[Lazyboy]

4 minutes ago, Cobbledclam said:

 

Nah This thread is about having a small bite of hamburger today and a full burger tomorrow.

[valiantman]

EDIT: my post was too long and probably worth discussing separately.  Maybe I'll post it somewhere else. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by valiantman

[AJLewandoski]

14 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

In 120, each individual member of Alpha Flight appears only briefly (and partially, in costume), with the exception of Vindicator, who has a significant presence in the issue. Aurora appears only in her regular guise in her bio-like panel.

Snowbird not Aurora, but regardless in this case unlike all the others presented we're not talking about a 1 or 2 panel stinger at the end of an issue to tease a character coming next month. All of Alpha Flight is running a mission to capture Wolverine and the X Men for the entire length of the issue. They are the main focus of the story, every character has conversations either with each other, or even the X Men.

Even if their time isn't evenly distributed they all affect the outcome of the story. Vindicator appears in 20 panels, Sasquatch in 11, Snowbird in 8, Aurora and Northstar in 4, and Shaman with the least at 3. We dont get full looks at their superhero costumes, but the whole team is well identified, named, and their powers are used and affect the story. Snowbird may be the exception because we don't see any of her costume, but appearing as a human is part of her powerset. Vindicator has the biggest presence because he serves as their leader and our main contact to tie all the seperate threads together, but that's because he was already introduced in #109. 

Just because CGC prints something doesn't make it true, hell there are plenty of slabbed copies of X Men #120 that list it as the first appearance of Vindicator when he had all of issue #109 as a premiere. I will say #121 is definitely the first time we see all of Alpha Flight assembled in a singular panel, but to call it their first appearance seems totally illogical.

[HotKey]

2 hours ago, Bob Loblaw III said:

Only if you're a pedantic fanboy.

People who try to argue with the facts that the people who own the rights to things create could also be called the same.

 

[serling1978]

The one that really gets me is Conan the Barbarian #24. I always see it referred to as the "first full appearance of Red Sonja". Even CGC puts that on the label. I have both 23 and 24  so the other day I checked and counted that Red Sonja is in over 15 panels of #23.  How in earth could #24 be her first "full" appearance?

At least the Wolverine debate is actually debatable. This red Sonja situation is a crime

[HotKey]

32 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw III said:

But if these "facts" are alerted/created by a ret-con they are no longer valid. 

Retconning has been going on a long time and is accepted in the market. Marvel has a direct impact on the market with their decisions. 

If Marvel announced tomorrow that ASM 252 was now the true 1st appearance of Venom with their Dylan arc, the market would see an immediate drop from 298/299/300 and 252 would be well on it's way to being a 5k+ 9.8.

[Kramerica]

So, what does everyone think about Carnage and ASM #359 and #360? Cameo and 1st app? Many would argue that #359 is his first appearance. Some would argue #360. Since it's the topic of the day what does everyone think?

ASM #359:

ASM #360:

It seems like #360 at the very least contains a Carnage appearance to some degree. I just don't think I buy the "#361 is his first appearance" statement when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

[ADAMANTIUM]

3 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

So, what does everyone think about Carnage and ASM #359 and #360? Cameo and 1st app? Many would argue that #359 is his first appearance. Some would argue #360. Since it's the topic of the day what does everyone think?

ASM #359:

ASM #360:

It seems like #360 at the very least contains a Carnage appearance to some degree. I just don't think I buy the "#361 is his first appearance" statement when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

what about #345?

[Kramerica]

2 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

what about #345?

I think that #345 is an appearance of the symbiote but not of Carnage. Kasady being being injected with the symbiote? Yes. Carnage appearing? No.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

2 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

I think that #345 is an appearance of the symbiote but not of Carnage. Kasady being being injected with the symbiote? Yes. Carnage appearing? No.

 

Even that last flip? And "not over?"

Perhaps

It may be remeniscent to some of ASM #298 with venom is why I ask...

Edit well given it's venoms "offspring' it could be an origin issue ...  @Kramerica

Edited July 8, 2021 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

4 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Even that last flip? And "not over?"

Perhaps

It may be remeniscent to some of ASM #298 with venom is why I ask...

Edit well given it's venoms "offspring' it could be an origin issue ...  @Kramerica

given that it is 

"venom's offspring"

who did venom mate with?  

[Lazyboy]

3 hours ago, AJLewandoski said:

Snowbird not Aurora

Yup! I don't know what I was thinking there.

3 hours ago, AJLewandoski said:

in this case unlike all the others presented we're not talking about a 1 or 2 panel stinger at the end of an issue to tease a character coming next month. All of Alpha Flight is running a mission to capture Wolverine and the X Men for the entire length of the issue. They are the main focus of the story, every character has conversations either with each other, or even the X Men.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them the focus, but you are correct that they are actually part of the story. I just have a hard time calling it the full appearance of the team when most members appear in only a few panels and are presented mysteriously in those panels.

3 hours ago, AJLewandoski said:

Snowbird in 8

Where is Snowbird in 8 panels in 120?

3 hours ago, AJLewandoski said:

Just because CGC prints something doesn't make it true

That's for sure. You won't see me arguing that.

[Lazyboy]

8 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

given that it is 

"venom's offspring"

who did venom mate with?  

Eddie and Peter. Threesome!

[Lazyboy]

16 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Even that last flip? And "not over?"

"Plip", not "flip".

That's foreshadowing. There's definitely no Carnage there.

[Lazyboy]

32 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

So, what does everyone think about Carnage and ASM #359 and #360? Cameo and 1st app? Many would argue that #359 is his first appearance. Some would argue #360. Since it's the topic of the day what does everyone think?

ASM #359:

ASM #360:

It seems like #360 at the very least contains a Carnage appearance to some degree. I just don't think I buy the "#361 is his first appearance" statement when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

Carnage has two brief teasers leading into his full appearance in ASM 361. ASM 359 is the first appearance of Carnage.

[valiantman]

29 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

I think that #345 is an appearance of the symbiote but not of Carnage. Kasady being being injected with the symbiote? Yes. Carnage appearing? No.

 

I think "injected" is the wrong word.  Kasady is holding a shank, not a syringe.

Did you mean "infected"?  The symbiote is dripping beside him, but doesn't touch him.

Carnage is a red symbiote, so we haven't seen any hint of Carnage until the symbiote turns red (ASM #359).

[Lazyboy]

30 minutes ago, Kramerica said:

Kasady being being injected with the symbiote? Yes.

Injected? The Carnage symbiote drips down in front of him. We don't see Kasady interacting with the symbiote, though we obviously find out later that he did.

[AJLewandoski]

28 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Yup! I don't know what I was thinking there.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them the focus, but you are correct that they are actually part of the story. I just have a hard time calling it the full appearance of the team when most members appear in only a few panels and are presented mysteriously in those panels.

Where is Snowbird in 8 panels in 120?

That's for sure. You won't see me arguing that.

I guess I may be guilty of misremembering too  Snowbirds name is Anne and one of the pilots of their plane is called Annie. I thought the pilot was Snowbird in disguise since they're nearly identical in appearance and she doesn't appear before or after these 2 Alpha Flight books.

This all just for the sake of arguing the topic. I have both issues, paid the same price for each, and I'm not intending on selling them, they were just the strongest counter example I could come up with.

[HotKey]

1 hour ago, Bob Loblaw III said:

 

You can disagree that Marvel announcements have a direct, immediate and large impact on the comic market but I'm going to stick with the years of evidence that shows they do.

Outside of Adam/HIM, is there any more contested first appearances than what is around the symbiotes?

[HotKey]

30 minutes ago, Bob Loblaw III said:

So if CGC labels a book one way and Marvel announced the same thing another way, how many fanboy heads would explode? 

Just the CGC ones.