Worst OA in Existence 0

[Rick2you2]

3 minutes ago, Will_K said:

When you kicked off the topic, one of the things you mentioned is art from comics based on TV shows have very low odds of appreciation now and in the future.  So those may not count as the worst since they were never valued highly.

Maybe "worst" (low future value) can be who may have the greatest fall in appreciation in the future?  I think that's hard to say.  But let's say it's Jack Kirby.  He isn't call "The King" for no reason.  Now, I'm mainly a DC guy.  But I'm not all that familiar with Kirby's DC work.  So I don't really have any nostalgia for Kirby (note, a few days ago, I ordered the Fourth World Omnibus).  But even though I don't know the stories, I respect Jack Kirby because of his sheer output, contributions to how to draw comics (storytelling), character designs and longevity.  Also, re: the "Stan vs Jack" question, I generally believe 2 person teams are usually divided by "brains" and "talent".  I consider Kirby to be the talent.  In another topic, someone posted this:  https://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_Lee-Kirby.html   Maybe it's "confirmation bias" but I think it's a great write-up.

So Kirby's art is generally valued about as high as one can get.  Can Kirby art fall in value ?  Maybe, if demand falls.  What could lower demand?  Well, maybe tastes change and Kirby's style no longer holds as much interest, it's just viewed as a curiosity.  Maybe the over-the-top melodramatic Marvel dialog (thanks, Stan) is considered so cringe in the 21st Century that those comics are rejected.  Maybe MCU movies are so dominant that even the source material is ignored.  Interest in the movies doesn't drive comics buying.  People who go to those movies know Stan Lee.  How many know about Jack Kirby?  And as has been widely discussed previously in other topics...  generational changes re: the general decline in collecting and lack of interest.

So maybe (just maybe) Kirby art can fall in value in... 20 years ?  Where does that leave every other artist (even the ones influenced by Kirby)?  It doesn't mean other artists will go down to zero.  It just means maybe Kirby art fell the most.  So the general rule can be: the bigger they are, the harder they fall.  How's that, @Rick2you2 ??

 

 

That works. So does the Alex Ross example from grapey. Now, what candidates are the worst of the worst? The Forever People? Devil Dinosaur? 
 

FYI, I was actually toying with the idea of buying comics based on old television shows just for giggles and laughs. Camp Runamuck was really terrible. It only lasted 1 pitiful half-season. I wonder if anyone tried to do a comic based on My Mother the Car?

[PhilipB2k17]

6 hours ago, Readcomix said:

I won’t hurl tomatoes because that’s sadly a very reasonable opinion on much of the material. The nostalgia factor certainly mitigates; he was drawing Godzilla and Shogun Warriors at a time when a lot of the right people were 8 to 12 years old. (And thanks to Dan Green that’s not his worst stuff.) He was also a top tier creator when ranking by who is/was nicest to fans— he is sorely missed by many of us in that regard.

Herb also came in at a time when Marvel was also welcoming Steranko, Adams and Starlin - he broke into the big leagues as a very serviceable player among a bunch of future all-stars. Off the top of my head, I think his stuff looked best inked by Marie Severin; of course who inks makes a big difference in finished product, but Herb moreso than a lot of guys seemed to vary widely by inker.

Herb, like Sal Buscema, was a good sequential storyteller. I like his work on Godzilla. Hulk, not so much. 

[Will_K]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

I was actually toying with the idea of buying comics based on old television shows just for giggles and laughs.

ComicConnect.com has some excellent Partridge Family pages by Don Sherwood in their upcoming auction.  Although sadly, no pages feature them singing.   And no "bus" pages. 

Also, there was a PF page in one of the recent Dueling Dealers shows (don't recall if it sold).  Ask Anthony if he has more !!!

Edited July 18, 2021 by Will_K

[zhamlau]

2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Sal Buscema, was a good sequential storyteller.

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by zhamlau

[vodou]

8 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

So, since you raised the subject of Trimpe, where will he end up on the price spectrum in 20 years?

It's gonna be wherever the fans value first Wolverine, a long run of Hulk and some crummy licensed stuff - in 20 years.

The money that stabilizes mountains is at the base of the pyramid, with the fans.

[vodou]

5 hours ago, bluechip said:

...and by madness I mean the potential anger of people who paid a lot for it (or have lots of it to sell) and don't appreciate it being called "bad"

Oh. This falls right into the Most People Are Stoopid category.

Stoopid for buying to begin with, Stoopider for allowing their emotions to so easily be swayed for something they only wrote a check for (as opposed to actually drawing the thing!)

No pity.

 

[MyNameIsLegion]

15 hours ago, vodou said:

Both of us more than once over the years here.

If I'm reading correctly that you're applying aesthetics to dollars and cents...that's not going to work out. Because: fanboy nostalgia. That's what drives the money, not aesthetics. We aestheticians enjoy the relatives steals we get every single day while fanboys chase god-awful (and I'm being kind) Herb Trimpe "anything". In 40 years (since August 1981) I've never seen a single Herb Trimpe anything that I'd pay market for, gross gross gross. And now I grab my umbrella cuz...tomatoes be flyin' on this fan site  

challenge accepted!   All Trimpe, from Savage Tales vol 2. And I've seen this in person, and it looks even better. Now compare that to his FF Unlimited in the early 90's where he was directed to ape Rob Liefeld, that's another story...

[Rick2you2]

12 hours ago, aokartman said:

Agree, that is the type of acquisition that is ripe for disappointment from an investment perspective.  However, I suspect there are collectors in a similar vein that don't care, and are perfectly happy about their collection regardless of the return on investment.  I put myself in that category; I don't have any regrets about past art purchases.  It is entertaining to watch movement over the years, and I certainly re-examine my collection in a new light from time to time, but I don't dwell on it.  Maybe it's just my personality.  David

David, 

You’ve been doing this a long time. What do you think has a poor future? This is not about aesthetics, but as this hobby is so nostalgia based, is least likely to do well?

Rick

[Rick2you2]

8 hours ago, vodou said:

It's gonna be wherever the fans value first Wolverine, a long run of Hulk and some crummy licensed stuff - in 20 years.

The money that stabilizes mountains is at the base of the pyramid, with the fans.

You’ve never been particularly shy before. Who or what is high now but won’t maintain high appreciation, or may sink, and is big now?  

Since I feel like painting with a broad brush, my suspicion is almost any 1960’s Marvel page or cover will not appreciate (or maybe hold onto its value), as the stuff which is coming out in the last 25 years. The primary reason is nostalgia. The secondary reason is changing artistic styles. What was stunning in the 1960’s now look like “old hat”. Will a first appearance by Wolverine hold or increase? Of course, so would Action No. 1, even though the raw aesthetic of the art isn’t so hot by today’s standards. But that’s easy. Pick hard. No one will remember later.

[vodou]

3 hours ago, MyNameIsLegion said:

challenge accepted!   All Trimpe, from Savage Tales vol 2. And I've seen this in person, and it looks even better. Now compare that to his FF Unlimited in the early 90's where he was directed to ape Rob Liefeld, that's another story...

Yes. Nice. But what's market? I remember when it sold (a few years ago?) on eBay. I bid. But I did not win, was not willing to pay "market"  

[vodou]

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

The secondary reason is changing artistic styles. What was stunning in the 1960’s now look like “old hat”.

Neal Adams. Stands to lose or underperform greatly. Stiff and overly rendered, "trying too hard to be 'realistic'" by today's aesthetic.

2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

You’ve never been particularly shy before.

Maybe this will shock everyone (???) but...I hold back, here, a lot. Imagine being my wife  

[Rick2you2]

25 minutes ago, vodou said:

Neal Adams. Stands to lose or underperform greatly. Stiff and overly rendered, "trying too hard to be 'realistic'" by today's aesthetic.

Maybe this will shock everyone (???) but...I hold back, here, a lot. Imagine being my wife  

Interesting choice. Certainly, his later stuff, of which there is too much. Some of his books, like Batman, are iconic and may keep moving up.

Any one else care to jump in here? Book titles, too?

[vodou]

14 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Any one else care to jump in here? Book titles, too?

It's good that Albert plans to take his GL cover to the grave. His heirs will find out what 'the other side' of the equation looks like. And no, don't be confused I'm very much wishing Albert a continued long and prosperous time on earth. But in 20, 30, 40 years...

43 minutes ago, vodou said:

Stands to lose or underperform greatly.

 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, vodou said:

It's good that Albert plans to take his GL cover to the grave. His heirs will find out what 'the other side' of the equation looks like. And no, don't be confused I'm very much wishing Albert a continued long and prosperous time on earth. But in 20, 30, 40 years...

 

Not sure which one it is, but I don’t think Gil Kane’s work will hold up well for the new generation. While it has a clean, meticulous quality to it, the artwork generally feels cold and studied. That could also affect Starlin’s pricing (even while having an awesome feel to it). Of course, maybe the next generation likes that. 

[aokartman]

4 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

David, 

You’ve been doing this a long time. What do you think has a poor future? This is not about aesthetics, but as this hobby is so nostalgia based, is least likely to do well?

Rick

I am optimistic that all current values for original comic art will be exceeded within the next 20 years. let's say, in raw dollars.  But, I try to think of a single piece I've sold or seen which has achieved a price which it will not surpass over 20 years.  In comic art, nothing I've sold is worth less today, even outliers.  So, I broadened to a quick Heritage archive search and found this by Sherrie Levine.... Now, I don't know the owner or the artist or the seller, but $16,250 seems like it might be as high as this could go in 20 years.  Who knows?  In 20 years $16K might be chump change for many more collectors than today.  David

[vodou]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

Not sure which one it is, but...

Not Kane. Adams.

Kane...ugh...that would need to be a separate post  

[vodou]

57 minutes ago, aokartman said:

let's say, in raw dollars.

This is important.

59 minutes ago, aokartman said:

In 20 years $16K might be chump change for many more collectors than today.

I'll gently suggest it's more likely we're all using yuan (CNY) or whatever the yuan becomes in 20 years, "dollars" will either be irrelevant or extinct then.

I'll further suggest that whatever is in high/highest demand in collectibles will be what the middle/upper financial classes of post-CCP China want, not what we/Western countries want/value/are nostalgic for "now" or "then". Maybe it will be things that tie to films based on sequential-originating properties, those films are popular in China, but then again...maybe not.

2032.95

[aokartman]

1 minute ago, vodou said:

This is important.

I'll gently suggest it's more likely we're all using yuan (CNY) or whatever the yuan becomes in 20 years, "dollars" will either be irrelevant or extinct then.

I'll further suggest that whatever is in high/highest demand in collectibles will be what the middle/upper financial classes of post-CCP China want, not what we/Western countries want/value/are nostalgic for "now" or "then". Maybe it will be things that tie to films based on sequential-originating properties, those films are popular in China, but then again...maybe not.

2032.95

Thank you for that reminder.  It is another great reason why I believe the future of all US-derived original comic art is bright.  An uptick from other strong buying cohort(s) could hoover up entire genres of OA at current prices if they so desired.  Might already be happening.  David

[vodou]

2 minutes ago, aokartman said:

An uptick from other strong buying cohort(s) could hoover up entire genres of OA at current prices if they so desired.  Might already be happening.

Anything could happen. It's all true that a really big asteroid (or lunar 'wobbles') could render humans extinct long before even 20 years  

[Rick2you2]

2 hours ago, aokartman said:

I am optimistic that all current values for original comic art will be exceeded within the next 20 years. let's say, in raw dollars.  But, I try to think of a single piece I've sold or seen which has achieved a price which it will not surpass over 20 years.  In comic art, nothing I've sold is worth less today, even outliers.  So, I broadened to a quick Heritage archive search and found this by Sherrie Levine.... Now, I don't know the owner or the artist or the seller, but $16,250 seems like it might be as high as this could go in 20 years.  Who knows?  In 20 years $16K might be chump change for many more collectors than today.  David

That’s a modest view of what I was hoping to elicit. If the average price of OA goes up, say, 100% in 20 years, but Gil Kane’s GL work only goes up 20%, I would consider that in the “worst” category— unless BWS Conan stuff only goes up 10%, which would be worse. Of course old 1960’s Marvel art will generally rise—so will the price of a chocolate bar—but in proportion to newer stuff? On average, I doubt it, except for dealer to dealer swaps or iconic pieces which break the rule.