CGC Common Sense Defense

[shadroch]

CGC is supposed to be an independent grading service.To be truly independent,they need to treat every submission the same.They have now been accussed twice of providing services that will improve grades to a certain select group.

While these allegations are unproven,and the people making them have so far refused to be named,CGC has yet to deny them.A single sentence of denial by Steve B would satisfy most forumites,including myself.Yet,what we get is a post that PCS is not yet operating and we are invited to submit books when they start.

Now I have no idea if these rumors of favored clients are true,but I am very concerned that CGC,and more importantly Steve B, has thus far not seen fit to deny them.

Until this situation is straightened out,whatever guaranty they may or may not offer is meaningless to me.

[Norrin_Radd]

If a person submitting a comic wanted a full restoration check on every book, they could pay an additional fee of some sort.

 

You may have some good points Glenn, but this is NOT one of them.

 

 

It is CGC's job to find resto if it exists and label the book as such. It the major reason for their existence along with accurate "objective" grading.

 

Now you want them to NOT do a full resto check on every book? That's exactly what unscrupulous sellers want! They want their restored books to make it through CGC undetected.

 

[Silver Surfer]

If a person submitting a comic wanted a full restoration check on every book, they could pay an additional fee of some sort.

 

You may have some good points Glenn, but this is NOT one of them.

 

 

It is CGC's job to find resto if it exists and label the book as such. It the major reason for their existence along with accurate "objective" grading.

 

Now you want them to NOT do a full resto check on every book? That's exactly what unscrupulous sellers want! They want their restored books to make it through CGC undetected.

 

 

It almost sounds like we are blamming the consumer or making excuses for CGC who failed to detect the trimming in the first place. Restoration detection is one of the foundations of CGC's service offering so Goat's statement is really puzzling.

[Darthdiesel]

Maximaize your CORE business!

 

I thought that's what they were doing all along with these new ventures? Ask yourself who is their CORE business...

[Aman619]

"who is their core business" is different from my slant on it. I am suggesting more "What is their core business". - - grading and resto check for dealers/consumers.

 

but, 'whom' were you referring to?

[Darthdiesel]

It almost sounds like we are blamming the consumer or making excuses for CGC who failed to detect the trimming in the first place.

 

Blame the consumer for setting CGC on the pedestal it was never meant to be on.

 

Restoration detection is one of the foundations of CGC's service offering so Goat's statement is really puzzling.

 

Restoration detection was never a concern to me when I submitted my 9.8 and up prescreens of Ultimate Spider-Man and Origin My foundation for submission was to get a label on an encapsulated book of mine with a number that would help me sell the book for current market value = liquidity. Here were my choices - sell a USM 1 that I thought was NM to a picky buyer over the internet thru ebay for $25-50 because they undergrade by two full grades when dealing over the internet (who might in turn realize that it was accurately graded as a NM when it's in hand, get it slabbed and sell it for 10X more) or have it slabbed by CGC myself, get the 9.6 White pages on there by a third party grading company and sell it closer to the current going market rate of $250. Now this result of a 9.6 slabbed grade is open to everyone, whether if I submitted it, or you submitted it, Metro submitted it, Heritage submitted it, Red hook submitted it, etc. That is why I use CGC for selling books and why I buy slabbed books for my collection. It is the inherent trust in the number on the label representing what is held in the slab. I may have called it a NM/MT if trying to sell it raw and maximize my sales result and the buyer working toward the opposite end would call the book VF/NM in order to lowball me and get the book as cheap as possible. CGC eliminated a lot of that haggling due to difference of opinion in condition and made transacting in slabs over the internet much easier. I can understand why guys who spend $30K in HG silver and gold books are in a tizzy over recent developments but realistically how many of those folks are on here? For the guys who use CGC for the scenario I describe above, has anything changed?

[Norrin_Radd]

Ask yourself who is their CORE business...

 

Unscrupulous Inner Circle dealers who want to maximize their profits?

 

Not sure I agree with that particular conspiracy theory.

[Aman619]

It almost sounds like we are blamming the consumer or making excuses for CGC who failed to detect the trimming in the first place.

 

Blame the consumer for setting CGC on the pedestal it was never meant to be on.

 

Restoration detection is one of the foundations of CGC's service offering so Goat's statement is really puzzling.

 

Restoration detection was never a concern to me when I submitted my 9.8 and up prescreens of Ultimate Spider-Man and Origin My foundation for submission was to get a label on an encapsulated book of mine with a number that would help me sell the book for current market value = liquidity. Here were my choices - sell a USM 1 that I thought was NM to a picky buyer over the internet thru ebay for $25-50 because they undergrade by two full grades when dealing over the internet (who might in turn realize that it was accurately graded as a NM when it's in hand, get it slabbed and sell it for 10X more) or have it slabbed by CGC myself, get the 9.6 White pages on there by a third party grading company and sell it closer to the current going market rate of $250. Now this result of a 9.6 slabbed grade is open to everyone, whether if I submitted it, or you submitted it, Metro submitted it, Heritage submitted it, Red hook submitted it, etc. That is why I use CGC for selling books and why I buy slabbed books for my collection. It is the inherent trust in the number on the label representing what is held in the slab. I may have called it a NM/MT if trying to sell it raw and maximize my sales result and the buyer working toward the opposite end would call the book VF/NM in order to lowball me and get the book as cheap as possible. CGC eliminated a lot of that haggling due to difference of opinion in condition and made transacting in slabs over the internet much easier. I can understand why guys who spend $30K in HG silver and gold books are in a tizzy over recent developments but realistically how many of those folks are on here? For the guys who use CGC for the scenario I describe above, has anything changed?

 

As written, looking at CGC as a tool for selling at market value, you are right on. That is their core business.

 

But how would you look at it if Ewert types, or others, hired Friesen or others to manufacture lots MORE 9.6s to compete in the marketplace against YOUR virgin 9.6? Then you would be affected. I think the chink in your scenario is your use of Modern books which by and large go un-worked on.

[Darthdiesel]

but, 'whom' were you referring to?

 

Modern submitters, pre-screeners, mass submitters (100 books and up monthly)

[Silver Surfer]

It almost sounds like we are blamming the consumer or making excuses for CGC who failed to detect the trimming in the first place.

 

Blame the consumer for setting CGC on the pedestal it was never meant to be on.

 

Restoration detection is one of the foundations of CGC's service offering so Goat's statement is really puzzling.

 

Restoration detection was never a concern to me when I submitted my 9.8 and up prescreens of Ultimate Spider-Man and Origin My foundation for submission was to get a label on an encapsulated book of mine with a number that would help me sell the book for current market value = liquidity. Here were my choices - sell a USM 1 that I thought was NM to a picky buyer over the internet thru ebay for $25-50 because they undergrade by two full grades when dealing over the internet (who might in turn realize that it was accurately graded as a NM when it's in hand, get it slabbed and sell it for 10X more) or have it slabbed by CGC myself, get the 9.6 White pages on there by a third party grading company and sell it closer to the current going market rate of $250. Now this result of a 9.6 slabbed grade is open to everyone, whether if I submitted it, or you submitted it, Metro submitted it, Heritage submitted it, Red hook submitted it, etc. That is why I use CGC for selling books and why I buy slabbed books for my collection. It is the inherent trust in the number on the label representing what is held in the slab. I may have called it a NM/MT if trying to sell it raw and maximize my sales result and the buyer working toward the opposite end would call the book VF/NM in order to lowball me and get the book as cheap as possible. CGC eliminated a lot of that haggling due to difference of opinion in condition and made transacting in slabs over the internet much easier. I can understand why guys who spend $30K in HG silver and gold books are in a tizzy over recent developments but realistically how many of those folks are on here? For the guys who use CGC for the scenario I describe above, has anything changed?

 

Darth what are you talking about? CGC's very own marketing piece has been that you no longer have to worry about buying a book with the fear that it may have been restored (just like in the old days of the wild wild west of comic buying) because of the services that they provide. The label gives the consumer that level of comfort. We never put them on any pedalstal, this is just another cop out from the CGC camp of supporters.

 

Just because restoration detection is probably an after thought when it comes to modern books doesn't mean it applies the same way with GA, SA and BA books. CGC always bashed PGX/PGA because they didn't have proper restoration experts on hand? I guess I could understand your position if CGC had always suggested that restoration detection was optional for them but that is simply not the case.

 

Why do we keep making excuses for them?

[Darthdiesel]

Ask yourself who is their CORE business...

 

Unscrupulous Inner Circle dealers who want to maximize their profits?

 

Not sure I agree with that particular conspiracy theory.

 

Hey I think anyone who sells their books wants to maximize profits, myself included. Some of us are happy to work within the parameters of the system in place instead of crossing that line, which would land you into that unscrupulous category.

[Norrin_Radd]

I think the chink in your scenario is your use of Modern books which by and large go un-worked on.

 

Per a previous post by Shadroch...

 

"CGC has slabbed a total of 395,360 books,as of last March. As the grade that is hit the most is 9.6 (just under 20%), I'm guessing the majority of slabbed books are moderns. Again, using CBGs numbers, almost 60% of slabbed books are 9.2 or better with the median grade being 9.4."

 

Sounds like most of CGC's business is moderns (1980-up).

[Fan4Fan]

The only thing that occurs to me WRT the automotive analogy was a lemon VW Golf that the dealer couldn't fix correctly. It was under warranty and the more they worked on it, the worse it got. All the while, they denied there was a problem.

 

Take that for what you will...

[Silver Surfer]

I think the chink in your scenario is your use of Modern books which by and large go un-worked on.

 

Per a previous post by Shadroch...

 

"CGC has slabbed a total of 395,360 books,as of last March. As the grade that is hit the most is 9.6 (just under 20%), I'm guessing the majority of slabbed books are moderns. Again, using CBGs numbers, almost 60% of slabbed books are 9.2 or better with the median grade being 9.4."

 

Sounds like most of CGC's business is moderns (1980-up).

 

But most books pre-1980 cost at least 3x as much to grade than moderns so it would be interesting to see the percentages in terms of dollars earned.

[Darthdiesel]

But how would you look at it if Ewert types, or others, hired Friesen or others to manufacture lots MORE 9.6s to compete in the marketplace against YOUR virgin 9.6? Then you would be affected. I think the chink in your scenario is your use of Modern books which by and large go un-worked on.

 

Actually something similar (making more 9.6s/98s available for mass consumption)did happen once ColussusComics and All4comics got in gear with their 9.8 subscription services and prescreens for new 9.8s for off the shelf weekly books, but they went through the same channels that everyone (all the smaller time submitters) did, except they did it on a much larger scale and consistently longer month after month because their business models could tolerate the sales/revenue numbers and profit margins they were generating.

 

From what you are claiming above though, I'd definitely think this scenario is f'n shady (manufacturing 9.6's via trimming but not noted via award of blue label for some but not all submissions) BUT to this date there is nothing there that shows CGC was in collusion with Ewert on this blue labelled trimmed books. Actually CGC got duped along with the rest of us.

[Darthdiesel]

Darth what are you talking about? CGC's very own marketing piece has been that you no longer have to worry about buying a book with the fear that it may have been restored (just like in the old days of the wild wild west of comic buying) because of the services that they provide.

 

To a certain extent, that is pretty much true, even in light of recent events.

But for you and guys who are concerned with the resto detection of CGC, you just have to figure out how many restored books slip by CGC you can tolerate before you lose faith in the company and their claims and then adjust your buying and participation in the hobby accordingly? I'm not telling you to support them if you feel they have failed in their claims to resto detection superiority over dealers and other grading companies(y)

 

The facet of their marketing I was more pre-occupied with was the classic Wizard/CBG ad of "ASM 300 in NM on ebay: $30; ASM 300 in CGC 9.4 on ebay: $150!!!" and to me this aspect of their marketing holds true.

 

 

The label gives the consumer that level of comfort. We never put them on any pedalstal, this is just another cop out from the CGC camp of supporters.

 

Other than testimonials from supporters, or reactions from forumites, I have never seen one ad or marketing blurb on their website which states: "We are the undisputed guardians of the comic collecting hobby and our very existence and our mission is to make sure you never get screwed on a comic book transaction from here ever on and always, etc..." Take it as a cop out if you will but they've met my expectations (which is that using them will help me sell my books easier) from day one.

 

Just because restoration detection is probably an after thought when it comes to modern books doesn't mean it applies the same way with GA, SA and BA books. CGC always bashed PGX/PGA because they didn't have proper restoration experts on hand? I guess I could understand your position if CGC had always suggested that restoration detection was optional for them but that is simply not the case.

 

Surfer, I've always understood that resto detection for books that I submitted (straight out of the case or off the shelves) was, if not close to, nil. So I guess in my case, resto detection was always an afterthought.

 

But as for the bashing back and forth with PGX, that's just hype to establish market dominance. Like Pepsi and Coke battling out for market share. When Patterson was posting here, was he posting only good things about CGC? Or was he tearing them down in order to promote what his new venture had to offer in comparison?

 

Why do we keep making excuses for them?

 

I like 'em?

[drbanner]

But for you and guys who are concerned with the resto detection of CGC, you just have to figure out how many restored books slip by CGC you can tolerate before you lose faith in the company and their claims and then adjust your buying and participation in the hobby accordingly? I'm not telling you to support them if you feel they have failed in their claims to resto detection superiority over dealers and other grading companies(y).

 

I don't believe anyone is saying that their resto detection is 100% accurate Darth, but when it comes to things like pedigree verification and restoration detection, the top dogs at CGC have as much experience as anyone out there. When you combine their experience, you get a level of certification/verification that you wouldn't get from any single dealer, regardless of whether or not they're grading a modern Spidey, or Action 1. They're not infallible, but collectively, they're better than any other individual or entity and we all have to put a certain confidence in anyone we buy books from, whether raw or slabbed, in person or over the 'net.

 

PGX doesn't even pass the smell test...I don't believe a single board member knew any of the principals at PGX before they started up.

[burntboy]

Goat - First off if your going to generalize and suggest that board members who speak out against CGC have an agenda then I'm going to label you as just another CGC apologist. I do not wish to wade into the name change debate and split hairs at this time. On paper I like what CGC brings to the hobby, always have. However, there is much that CGC does that begs questioning and I really hate it when people have to arrogance to suggest that if they don't like they can "leave the hobby". I seem to recall Red Hook being called a "jerk off forum member" for making a suggestion about Ewart serial numbers only to find out afterwards that he was correct. CGC is not the be all and end all of the hobby even though they like to present themselves as such.

 

I have said it many times before and I will say it again, the official response to the Ewart situation was bunk. The continued silence on various other questions that have arisen is always met with excuses and supporters who seem to side step and fail to address the foundation of many of our concerns-trust. The various issues of perceived conflicts of interest, transparancey of grading standards, preferred treatment, pedigree verification, restoration detection, etc are all valid questions. For example when CGC states that they don't consider pressing restoration because they can't detect it 100% of the time they may be correct but to use that as a basis to justify why "pressing is not restoration" is ridiculous. I'm not making this up, this is coming straight from senior management.

 

It was a board member who exposed the Ewart fiasco not CGC, yet they act as if they uncovered it because "certification works" - more nonsense. Steve alluded to the fact that what he had uncovered in the Ewart situation was "very bad". That was the last we heard on the situation. Well thank you for nothing.

 

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but maybe when CGC adopts a policy of addressing important issues with a little more thought and timeliness instead of threats of legal action and censorship then they maybe they can get more people behind them in a time of crisis. Until that happens I will continue to ask questions.

 

as much as i personally like all the folks at CGC and have been pleased with their service (albeit slow on those econs over the past year or so), i have to basically agree with most of the points that Surfer has made here.

 

with so many still opposed to pressing (and i have never been among them) the concept of deciding that since pressing is virtually impossible to detect, we won't call it restoration - and then morph into - our sister Org is starting a new service which will actually press the books, but it's still not resto, even though we now have 100% certainty.............

 

the lack of defined grading standards.............

 

the lack of defined Pedigree standards............

 

the new blue label Plods..................

 

the lack of a guarantee on resto detection, which seems to have suffered some lately.......

 

the resistance to release the list of all known Ewert/VIA submissions without a forcing subpoena.................

 

the lack of quicker, open and more insightful responses to many of these concerns........

 

the lack of some type of announcement by CGC on Ewertgate, similar to what GPA gratefully released.............

 

the Sum of all of the above create some pause for concern for this collector......

 

i wish them continued success after they become more collector centric.........

[Darthdiesel]

I don't believe anyone is saying that their resto detection is 100% accurate Darth, ..

 

From recent posts, Mike, I get the feeling that 100% is the minimum expectation from certain members due to how they read into CGC's promotion of their services via ads and that anytime something slips by the CGC wall and is caught restored afterward in a blue label, CGC should send a missive out to alert the comic collecting masses and get ready to open their collective wallets to compensate involved parties for their failures and and shortcomings in their resto detection.

[Rip]

But for you and guys who are concerned with the resto detection of CGC, you just have to figure out how many restored books slip by CGC you can tolerate before you lose faith in the company and their claims and then adjust your buying and participation in the hobby accordingly? I'm not telling you to support them if you feel they have failed in their claims to resto detection superiority over dealers and other grading companies(y).

 

I don't believe anyone is saying that their resto detection is 100% accurate Darth, but when it comes to things like pedigree verification and restoration detection, the top dogs at CGC have as much experience as anyone out there. When you combine their experience, you get a level of certification/verification that you wouldn't get from any single dealer, regardless of whether or not they're grading a modern Spidey, or Action 1. They're not infallible, but collectively, they're better than any other individual or entity and we all have to put a certain confidence in anyone we buy books from, whether raw or slabbed, in person or over the 'net.

 

PGX doesn't even pass the smell test...I don't believe a single board member knew any of the principals at PGX before they started up.

 

I'd still like to see PGX answer for sending us a doctored scan, trying to hide the fact they missed the trimming.