CGC Common Sense Defense

[4GEMWORKS]

as much as i personally like all the folks at CGC and have been pleased with their service (albeit slow on those econs over the past year or so), i have to basically agree with most of the points that Surfer has made here.

 

with so many still opposed to pressing (and i have never been among them) the concept of deciding that since pressing is virtually impossible to detect, we won't call it restoration - and then morph into - our sister Org is starting a new service which will actually press the books, but it's still not resto, even though we now have 100% certainty.............

 

the lack of defined grading standards.............

 

the lack of defined Pedigree standards............

 

the new blue label Plods..................

 

the lack of a guarantee on resto detection, which seems to have suffered some lately.......

 

the resistance to release the list of all known Ewert/VIA submissions without a forcing subpoena.................

 

the lack of quicker, open and more insightful responses to many of these concerns........

 

the lack of some type of announcement by CGC on Ewertgate, similar to what GPA gratefully released.............

 

the Sum of all of the above create some pause for concern for this collector......

 

i wish them continued success after they become more collector centric.........

 

I should probably quit while I'm ahead. Darthdiesel has pretty effectively made points that I agree with 100%.

 

I must say that the response by Esquire comics, while I still think might be a bit overboard, comes from a position similar to mine. While I may have a modest portion of my overall net worth in comics, I still have a LOT of money tied up in CGC comic books. Anybody can see my ASM collection in the registry.

 

It has been my practical experience that many of the vocal critics don't really even participate in CGC market of graded books. Therefore their arguments against CGC ring hollow to me because they are not really active in the particular niche anyway.

 

Esquire obvusly has a lot at stake and I must take comments like his very seriously.

 

In the above post the statement was made: "the lack of a guarantee on resto detection, which seems to have suffered some lately......."

 

I am going to go out on a limb and say that, notwithstanding the excellent detective work involved with the Ewertt books, I think a mountain has been made of a molehill. It was stated that something like 350,000+ books have now been graded. It has now also been proven that two were trimmed and got by CGC. Oh boy, a pandemic of restoration.....

 

I think Darth was right, from what you read in some threads people expect CGC to be 100% resposible for catching EVERY drop of restoration that goes through. I'll say it real simply: If restoration gets past CGC, I doubt that without the benefit of scans to compare, virtually nobody outsuide of CGC would find it either. Maybe not even other restoration experts.

 

On the pressing issue. I think this is really simple also. CGC thinks pressing is OK. I have no problem with pressing. If you don't like CGC's policy on pressing you should probably not do business with CGC graded books.

 

My philosophy on restoration has always been easy. If once the "work" is done, it cannot be detected as being done, it' s OK with me. Maybe it's not OK with you. That's OK with me too.

 

Trimming takes something away from a comic. Nearly all other types of restoration add something that was not there. With pressing nothing is added and nothing is taken away. That's just my opinion.

 

So far as these other complaints about CGC, they have always been the same. Pedigrees are like pornography, I guess. You know it when you see it. I guess CGC thinks they know it when they see it. I have a collection I thought should be pedigreed and was turned down. They wouldn't even give it a name.

 

I really don't have a problem with it because as far as I'm concerned, any book graded by CGC, receivibg a very high grade (say 9.4 or better) is a "pedigree" in its own right.

 

I know some people like the stories and the culture of a pedigreed book. But how is a 9.4 "White Mountain" graded 9.4 by CGC better than a "run of the mill copy that is also 9.4? (9.4 is 9.4, no matter who owned it originally). Either is just as rare as the other.

 

As far as grading, I have come to the conclusion that CGC grades adhere VERY CLOSELY if not IDENTICALLY to those found in OVERSTREET. I'm repeating myself, but maybe nobody is listening.

 

Like Carl, I am very, very happy with what CGC has done to make my comic collectinmg life easy to manage.

 

I think by and large. most critics of CGC now are the same ones that had been critics, even before the Ewertt issue took over the CGC headlines.

 

I can see why some people are concerned about CGC's parent company owning PCS. Maybe it's like old fashion coat hanger abortion. Is it better to have it done in a hospital than in back alley's where we all know its going on anyway. I have never had a book pressed. Partly because I've been too lazy to investigate. Partly because I guess I would be nervous about whether I could trust a book to somebody that might ruin it.

 

If I knew my books were going to be handled by Chris Friesen, I might just give it a try. At least now I don't have to go to a back alley to have a book pressed, should I decide to give it a try.

 

 

In summary, I probably don't have much else to say on the topic above and beyond what i have said and what others like Carl have added. I am thrilled that much intelligent thought has gone into much of the posting in this thread. It gives me hope for the future of my posting here. Thanks for your opinions. I wouldn't even go so far as to say I think other posters are wrong in their criticism of me or CGC. I just think we happen to have honest differences of opinion. CGC doesn't make it a habit to defend themselves and seeing how much heat they were taking I just wanted to share one opinion that is just about 100% satisfied with CGC.

 

Neeeeh... the Goat

[shadroch]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

[esquirecomics]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

[chrisco37]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

 

Steve said that? That is the first time I've seen a number.

[esquirecomics]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

 

Steve said that? That is the first time I've seen a number.

 

Its been said to several people who have e-mailed it around.

[chrisco37]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

 

Steve said that? That is the first time I've seen a number.

 

Its been said to several people who have e-mailed it around.

 

Outta the loop as usual.

[sfilosa]

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

 

 

I haven't heard that, but I'll assume you are correct.

 

I will say 150 SO FAR, seems like a lot.

 

I would be interested to know how many were books sent in for rechecks, and how many were in JE's submissions that were still at CGC?

 

I ask, because I want to see if he was getting bolder as time went on. Did he send 5-10 trimmed books in a submission of 100, and then started sending 20-25 in the newer submissions as he realized enough were getting past CGC to be worthwile?

 

Very interesting!!!!!!

[Silver Surfer]

As far as grading, I have come to the conclusion that CGC grades adhere VERY CLOSELY if not IDENTICALLY to those found in OVERSTREET. I'm repeating myself, but maybe nobody is listening. quote]

 

Oh I'm listening I just can't believe my ears sometimes. Assuming that they follow OS is one thing but then is it okay for me to assume that CGC is running a cover up on this Ewart fiasco? They are a grading company, they should have publish their standards like the OS guide does from day one. Show me where they have at least said that "we follow OS guide standards". Ask yourself why would they not do this? Not for our benefit, theirs.

[esquirecomics]

Actually, word from the man himself is that up to 150 books have been caught.

 

 

I haven't heard that, but I'll assume you are correct.

 

I will say 150 SO FAR, seems like a lot.

 

I would be interested to know how many were books sent in for rechecks, and how many were in JE's submissions that were still at CGC?

 

I ask, because I want to see if he was getting bolder as time went on. Did he send 5-10 trimmed books in a submission of 100, and then started sending 20-25 in the newer submissions as he realized enough were getting past CGC to be worthwile?

 

Very interesting!!!!!!

 

No doubt CGC will release further information at some point, or we will obtain it through the litigation. At this time I have only heard the 150 number, and I believe this referred to the JE books that were in the possession of CGC when the scandal broke.

[sfilosa]

No doubt CGC will release further information at some point, or we will obtain it through the litigation. At this time I have only heard the 150 number, and I believe this referred to the JE books that were in the possession of CGC when the scandal broke.

 

Ouch!!!

 

That's a lot of fairly high grade books that are now ruined.

[4GEMWORKS]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

I'll grant that an absolute number of 150 is a lot. I would add though that 150 out of 350,000 is still relatively small and given it is the product of one individual, does the one rotten apple ruin the whole barrel? A better questuon is: Is it more than one individual? I suppose that that is what critics want to know. That is a very legitimate concern.

 

I will grant the CGC critics the benefit of the doubt on questions as to how to know this can be prevented in the future with some assurance.

 

I have submitted well over 1000 books, mostly for "personal use". I have had books given a PLOD due to trimming that I cannot see at all whatsoever. Moreover, how does a scan help? Books are miscut all the time. It seems like the useable cover image is at least 1/8th of an inch extra, all the way around to adjust for that. The only way I could see that it can be definitively proven is with before and after shots, such as we saw here , or the traditional methods used by CGC.

 

I also have to give CGC the benefit of the doubt for now. They have promised to make good on the books and claim to have that infallible method of detection going forward. I bought 6 books from Ewertt in the last six months. I'll send mine in and see what the verdict is.

 

My next big fear is that seeing what Ewertt got by, maybe others will determine that they too, can get stuff by using some other high tech gadgetry.

 

The real "cure" is to ban anybody from submitting comics that is shown to have any type of participation in this type of venture. It was speculated for months that Jason pressed books. Maybe it wouldn't have been such a stretch, after all to assume worse might have been there. There may be others of a similar ilk, though I don't know who they would be. While folks should be innocent until proven guilty. whoever these suspect candidates are, CGC should apply extraordinary efforts going forward.

[Darthdiesel]

Glenn - a scan would only help if you had a before trimming scan and after trimming scan; that's how the FF 3 was flagged, ie resold on Heritage with scans of first sale and second sale at a higher grade up and able to be scrutinized

[mrwoogieman]

No doubt CGC will release further information at some point, or we will obtain it through the litigation. At this time I have only heard the 150 number, and I believe this referred to the JE books that were in the possession of CGC when the scandal broke.

 

Ouch!!!

 

That's a lot of fairly high grade books that are now ruined.

 

Thanks be to slow turnaround times that that mammoth pile of doctored books was still at the premises...

[mstryinspc-migration]

 

PGX doesn't even pass the smell test...I don't believe a single board member knew any of the principals at PGX before they started up.

 

 

OHHH PLEASE! You don't know someone so they don't rate? That is beyond foolish.

[drbanner]

PGX doesn't even pass the smell test...I don't believe a single board member knew any of the principals at PGX before they started up.

 

OHHH PLEASE! You don't know someone so they don't rate? That is beyond foolish.

 

I didn't say "I" didn't know them, I said "no one" knew them, not even the left-coasters or the Northwesterners! I don't believe that situation has changed one bit since then either...

[Harvey Dude]

The continued silence on various other questions that have arisen is always met with excuses and supporters who seem to side step and fail to address the foundation of many of our concerns-trust. The various issues of perceived conflicts of interest, transparancey of grading standards, preferred treatment, pedigree verification, restoration detection, etc are all valid questions. ...You can stick your head in the sand all you want but maybe when CGC adopts a policy of addressing important issues with a little more thought and timeliness instead of threats of legal action and censorship then they maybe they can get more people behind them in a time of crisis. Until that happens I will continue to ask questions.

 

[Harvey Dude]

stalkinggoat,

 

I welcome divergent points of view but I have to respectfully disagree with you on some of your observations. Regarding Guarantees, I have to side with Esquire. When CGC charges up to $1000 for grading a book they should provide guarantees beyond the three superficial assurances that you suggested. I have over one-hundred CGC slabbed books. I purchase CGC books for the restoration check. Alternative grading companies are more than competent in their grading abilities and they have better slabs but it is the restoration check that I thought set CGC apart.

 

You mentioned that “I had several comics "unrestored" and got the names from Steve. If Friesen wants to go out on his own and perform restoration that is his prerogative. If CGC continues to feel it is in their interest to contract with him, why would anyone care?”

 

I have concerns about your aforementioned statement that the head of an impartial grading company is giving advice on how to increase the grade that you can receive on a book via color touch removal or book improvement techniques. More importantly, I am at a loss why you do not think it is a conflict of interest "If CGC continues to feel it is in their interest to contract" with Frieson.

 

I don’t understand your statement that “PCS today confirmed to me that the transparency we would have hoped for is indeed present. What else does anybody expect now? If anything the playing field has now been leveled, by a company non other than CGC” Can you elaborate on how the playing field is leveled by having a restoration service (pressing is not conservation) under the umbrella organization and on the same floor as CGC?

 

And for the record, I believe most people believe the hobby is better off with CGC.

[lou_fine]

I'll cut you some slack because you obviously have not been following the boards very closely but TWO books?

FF3,FF10,Batman 11 and JEs Strange Tales is four,right there.

If Steve B didn't know that JE had passed more than that,do you think CGC would have banned him? Do you think his buddy Tom B would have dropped him like a hot potato(e)? Obviously they know something,wouldn't you agree?

 

I'll grant that an absolute number of 150 is a lot. I would add though that 150 out of 350,000 is still relatively small and given it is the product of one individual, does the one rotten apple ruin the whole barrel? A better questuon is: Is it more than one individual? I suppose that that is what critics want to know. That is a very legitimate concern.

 

Stalkinggoat;

 

Not sure where you are getting some of your numbers like 350,000 from. If you are saying this is the total number of books graded by CGC, the actual number is over 600,000.

 

It should also be pointed out that the 150 absolute total of possible JE trims is a very very significant number since this is based upon just the total population of Ewert books currently awaiting slabbing at CGC. Believe this total population is somewhere in the 600 range which means that approximately 25% of Jason's current submission has been trimmed.

 

Since Jason is most likely one of CGC's top 3 customers with thousands and thousands of submissions, you can just imagine the potential number of trimmed books out there, especially if the problem goes beyond the hoped for recent 9-month range.

[Aman619]

are those figures actually accurate? Ewert had 600 books at CGC waiting to be graded?? And of that batch, 150 were found to be trimmed? I have to wonder if, now that CGC KNOWS Ewert is a trimmer of mass proportions, whether they looked at his books "closer" this time. Im wondering if IN THIS CASE, knowing the books were Ewerts, if CGC was noticing or erring on the side of 'trimmed'.

 

I could argue it wither way. Maybe at first CGC hoped to NOT find any more instances. Or maybe Borock by then was SO PISSSED at Ewert that finding them was a priority.

 

I know this kind of thinking is sacraligious and reeks of controversy and personal grudges affecting the grading process. But, IN THIS CASE, what do you guys think?

[originalisbest]

I will weigh in here and say that IMO, there are some things I like greatly about CGC, some things I dislike with equal fervor. The notion of honest resto-detection ability, I find great. For things such as SCS, I find little excuse for it. Whomever designed the holder couldn't conceive that shipping funnybooks invariably would involve some bad vibrations??? But I digress.

 

Unfortunately, I have far less faith in the ability of the principals at CGC to be able to detect resto and be upfront about it, than I once did (it's not that they are not perfect, and got fooled here, that I have the problem with...not until I myself attain perfection, anyway.) Really, resto-check is the only reason I have for the personal use of CGC. To be more specific, I don't get into the merits of 9.2 vs. 9.4 vs. 9.6. Not only can it be something of a crapshoot when talking about the same book, not all books are identical (i.e a 9.4 with a perfectly centered cover vs. a 9.6 with a white spine showing at an unattractive angle), nor is it much use to have a "cherry" 9.8 now provided to you after a tumble through the postal service filled with the battle scars of shaken comic syndrome.

 

No, for me the only purpose for trusting in CGC was the (implied, as I think Mark has aptly demonstrated) resto check/guarantee, and the associated liquidity that came with that implied guarantee, which CGC's own advertising made no effort to "dispel", shall we say. And that faith is particularly shaken now, thanks to the Ewert fiasco.

 

It all could have been avoided. Now we "think" CGC "sort of" knows how to detect this new kind of trimming - BS. SHOW us what you've learned and DEMONSTRATE with CLEAR PHOTOS what the edge looks like vs. an "original" comic, and be wary of the fact that faith in the CGC product depends on it. Pre- and post scans? Super - show me that "pre" scan done in 1949 of Captain America #74 fresh off the presses - then compare it with the "after" scan done today. That makes sense. Otherwise, when was the original scan made? Sorry, there's got to be physical evidence on the book itself that tells the tale. And I haven't even gotten into the notion of digital manipulation of scans - pretty danged easy to do...

 

Without faith in the veracity of the proverbial "blue label", the rest of the package is unattractive bupkus to the marketplace, worth no more than the raw cost of the plastic shell and a laserprinted label. The notion that it takes 30 years to build a reputation, and 30 seconds to ruin it, was never more apt.

 

There's a precedent for doing things right when disaster strikes. A certain competitor out in California who deals in slabbing round things, was caught recently by one of the "bad guys" who snuck a (apparently) VERY high grade, and thus rare and highly valued, 1913-P $20 piece into a high grade holder of theirs. It wound up in a high-flying dealer's inventory when the surfaces started to whiten and "turn" - the thing had been worked over, puttied up, something, to appear in better shape than it really was. Somewhat akin to trimming a book (perhaps not as "final" a damage in the opinions of some - though not to me) that coin would not ever be the same, and mainly, it was not what the label on the holder purported it to be. It was worth a LOT less. So what became of this coin? What would happen? Would anyone step up to the plate and admit responsibility?

 

Several things happened in quick succession. The coin was returned to the slabber, where it was removed from that holder. Slabber bought it outright from the dealer who had been stuck with it, at a fair (HIGH) market value - the value of what it "supposedly" was. Further, large pictures of the coin were made available. Were examined. What had been done to it, with intent to deceive, was made very plain.

 

End result: that particular piece is off the market. Naturally, others will still try to slip things by - but if and when they are caught in that co's holders, there is a guarantee - a guarantee made in writing and lived up to - that no matter what the line of "who owned it when" is, if it's in the holder and there is a problem, a discrepancy between what it actually is and what the slab purports it to be, an effort WILL be made to make that problem (NOT the complaintant) "go away".

 

All I am saying is CGC could learn much from that real-life experience - recognize the value of forthrightness when a screwup is made - and share with us WHAT THEY'VE LEARNED about how this snuck by them. I don't expect human perfection, but I strongly dislike hiding behind evasive CYA statements. I DO expect an honorable organization to be transparent in their failings, turning a potential huge negative into a potential huge positive, by ably demonstrating that the buck will stop right at their door, no where else, when something goes awry. There is NO BETTER confidence builder - flip the coin, there is also no better confidence destroyer, depending on how it's handled.

 

If they choose not to approach it that way, then the market may simply not hold them to such a high standard. Which is fine. But at the same time, the market won't value them to such a high standard anymore either.