CGC Common Sense Defense

[Aman619]

very well said... So was this "round shape collectible slabbing company" related to CGC? I guess not or theyd have had a ready precedent to follow right now. Even better perhaps if CGC has to try to be as good as a competitor! Maybe theyll try to go them one better too!?

[originalisbest]

They ain't related to CGC, but are the main direct competitor to NGC, and it's been quite the tussle between them since 1987.

[Darthdiesel]

Alternative grading companies are more than competent in their grading abilities and they have better slabs but it is the restoration check that I thought set CGC apart.

 

Maybe so Harvey, (I would disagree with the aforementioned competence), but none of the alternatives have the market share and popularity as CGc does. For sellers to use alternatives would mean taking a risk with the amount of profits that could be made from sales.

 

You mentioned that “I had several comics "unrestored" and got the names from Steve. If Friesen wants to go out on his own and perform restoration that is his prerogative. If CGC continues to feel it is in their interest to contract with him, why would anyone care?”

 

I have concerns about your aforementioned statement that the head of an impartial grading company is giving advice on how to increase the grade that you can receive on a book via color touch removal or book improvement techniques.

 

Harvey, IMO, when you remove restoration from a book, it lowers the grade. It may change the label color from purple to blue but it goes from a nicer appearing book to its previous unrestored state with wear and flaws apparent. whther that increases value or not is a result dependent on the market. The head of an impartial grading company is like any experienced dealer or collector in the comic business - he has been around andis bound to know a thing or two about books and and their conditions. As long as Steve doesn't say to someone, "You should do x to your book in order to move it up from a 9.0 to a 9.6", i.e. guaranteeing CGC grades, then I have no problem with him advising someone on what could improve the appearance of the book. Should he unlearn what he has gleaned over the years about improving a book's condition? Should he keep his mouth shut when asked anything about resotration, detectin, removal, benefits, pitfalls, etc.?

 

More importantly, I am at a loss why you do not think it is a conflict of interest "If CGC continues to feel it is in their interest to contract" with Frieson.

 

Friesen is no longer a CGC employee. What he does over at PCS is independent of policy implementation at CGC. He no longer has any say or influence in what is flagged as resto over at CGC.

 

I don’t understand your statement that “PCS today confirmed to me that the transparency we would have hoped for is indeed present. What else does anybody expect now? If anything the playing field has now been leveled, by a company non other than CGC” Can you elaborate on how the playing field is leveled by having a restoration service (pressing is not conservation) under the umbrella organization and on the same floor as CGC?

 

I think Glenn is commenting on the fact that pressing was being done in the shadows, probably by BSDs and dealers = select clientele who could keep their mouths shut, and now the parent company of CGC is bringing this service out into the light, opening it up to the masses.

[Darthdiesel]

are those figures actually accurate? Ewert had 600 books at CGC waiting to be graded?? And of that batch, 150 were found to be trimmed? I have to wonder if, now that CGC KNOWS Ewert is a trimmer of mass proportions, whether they looked at his books "closer" this time. Im wondering if IN THIS CASE, knowing the books were Ewerts, if CGC was noticing or erring on the side of 'trimmed'.

 

I could argue it wither way. Maybe at first CGC hoped to NOT find any more instances. Or maybe Borock by then was SO PISSSED at Ewert that finding them was a priority.

 

I know this kind of thinking is sacraligious and reeks of controversy and personal grudges affecting the grading process. But, IN THIS CASE, what do you guys think?

 

 

I think this is why it is paramount that the identity of the submitter is not known to the graders beforehand. Technically all regrades of Ewert books resubmitted for resto check part deux are not impartially graded

[esquirecomics]

Red Hook posted this Chris Friesen post in another thread and I just had to repost it in the relevant thread for further discussion.

 

Hi everyone. For quite a few months now there have been many threads on these boards about pressing and I’m sure at conventions, comic stores, and anywhere else comic collectors gather to talk about this great hobby.

 

I’m not here to tell you that you should press books or buy pressed books because as free thinking individuals it is your right to make that decision yourself.

 

For months I have seen half truths and conspiracy theories run through these boards. Some people with true and honest opinions on pressing and others with their own personal agenda.

 

I have had many discussions about pressing with my co-workers, customers, collectors and dealers, but what has led me to writing this post is a piece of information that most of the people I have talked to believe is very important to the pressing issue. That is the burden of proof that CGC needs to decide if a comic receives a blue or purple label.

 

Checking for restoration is quite different than grading. When grading a comic you are looking at something that at one point was mint(ish) and are now evaluating it based on its state of deterioration and visible flaws to determine its grade. When checking for restoration you are looking for something that was not meant to be seen. Even for experts, though sometimes easy, most of the time it is very difficult.

 

And this leads me to my most important point. Unlike grading, restoration detection is not subjective. Restoration must be supported by proof and not a gut feeling. Like in a jury trial a comic is innocent until proven guilty. When I evaluate a comic for restoration and I find something that could be color touch I don’t stop there and assume it is, give the book a purple restoration label and move on. I stop, look closer and ask myself, “What is it? Is this color touch? What is its purpose? Is it there to cover an under lying flaw? Is it something other than color touch?” and so on, and so forth. Using my art background, almost two decades as a professional in this hobby consisting of, five years as a restorer with Renaissance Restoration Lab, almost five years with CGC, and over one million comics evaluated in my career, I make a decision based on evidence. Then I move on to the next odd looking spot on the comic, so on, and so forth. I do not do restoration checks based on my gut feeling but instead on evidence that the book provides. I know for a fact that Borock, Haspel, and Litch do restoration checks the same way.

 

On to pressing and expanding on my points above. If a suspected pressed comic was in a jury trial it would likely end in a hung jury. Based on the criteria above I would ask myself “Is this comic pressed?.....possibly, “Is this comic not pressed?”…..possibly. “This book has a lot of creases, does it make it not pressed”…..no, it still could be. “This book has no creases or bends, it must be pressed”…..no, it could simply be a high grade book. So on, and so forth.

 

I could start doing restoration checks by relying on my gut feeling. If a book rubs me the wrong way I could guess what was done. Flip a coin, roll the dice, pull out the ouija board, toss the chicken bones, or rely on my spidey senses. How many people will be disappointed when they get their books back from CGC in a purple or blue label that reads “Pressed” when they know it’s not possible? How many phone calls a day will I receive with people asking me “how do you know my book has been pressed?”, should I reply “Well..I thought it could be…possible”. Or possibly CGC should start using a new term on the label “Maybe Pressed”.

 

If CGC changes its stance on pressing will people stop pressing books? Of course not. If CGC changes its stance on pressing will it cast doubt on all books considering the new subjective restoration check policy. Maybe.

 

On a final note, do I consider pressing restoration? No. But that is just my opinion, not the reason I have written this. The point of this post was not to illustrate my opinion but to place the opinions of others into the context of CGC, its stance on restoration checks, and the comic book industry as a whole.

 

Chris Friesen

Restoration Detection Expert

Comic Guaranty, LLC

 

The bold text above is exactly why CGC should be guaranteeing its restoration detection service. It is a science, not an art. If CGC is not willing to stand behind it, the message sent is a lack of faith in their own science.

[Red Hook]

Banner collected and posted those Friesen posts, just to be accurate.

[garthgantu]

 

Harvey, IMO, when you remove restoration from a book, it lowers the grade. It may change the label color from purple to blue but it goes from a nicer appearing book to its previous unrestored state with wear and flaws apparent.

 

Here's what CGC says about resto removal vs. condition... all the books with very minor resto that are found in Blue Label slabs are examples of books where the restoration, if removed, would NOT result in a drop in grade. If the book would drop in grade if the resto were removed, then the book goes in a PLOD in the first place.