THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Bosco685]

On 1/17/2023 at 5:17 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

I meant drop the 5 star votes. But whatever, when it comes to a movie like Captain Marvel that puzzlingly stirs the wrong people up, you can't go by a RT audience score regarding the quality because of the troll bombing by those same wrong people that's unfortunately so prevalent today. 

There have been many strong female lead movies. So I am not sure what you think you are hinting at with this statement. And they had RT scores too.

But we could reflect on IMDb user ratings.

• With 1 and 10:  
  • With a two-point scale (Good, Not Good), 62% Good, 38% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale (Good, Neutral, Not Good), 35% Good, 52% Neutral, 13% Not Good.
• W/O 1 and 10: 
  • With a two-point scale, 62% Good, 38% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale, 30% Good, 61% Neutral, 9% Not Good.

Now if we compared it to a CBM from that same year that did much less at the box office:

• With 1 and 10:  
  • With a two-point scale (Good, Not Good), 71% Good, 29% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale (Good, Neutral, Not Good), 39% Good, 55% Neutral, 6% Not Good.
• W/O 1 and 10: 
  • With a two-point scale, 70% Good, 30% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale, 34% Good, 61% Neutral, 5% Not Good.

It would appear with a two-point scale (Rotten Tomatoes method) Shazam really stands out as a positive, while with a three-point scale (Metacritic method) Shazam slightly edges out Captain Marvel with audience positive reactions.

Or was this all manipulated as well?

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:17 PM, drotto said:

When is RT ever accurate?  It is subject to review bombing, and it is subject to review inflation.  The score is either reliable or not.  You always pick and choice when to use it.  With Captain Marvel you dismiss it because the score may have been negatively skewed, but when convenient you highlight RT as proof that the audience loves something. Just as with many people, you use the score when it support your argument, but will quickly dismiss it as junk, when you disagree with what it is showing. 

So many stories of audience, studios and even critic manipulation.

 

[drotto]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:31 PM, Bosco685 said:

There have been many strong female lead movies. So I am not sure what you think you are hinting at with this statement. And they had RT scores too.

But we could reflect on IMDb user ratings.

• With 1 and 10:  
  • With a two-point scale (Good, Not Good), 62% Good, 38% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale (Good, Neutral, Not Good), 35% Good, 52% Neutral, 13% Not Good.
• W/O 1 and 10: 
  • With a two-point scale, 62% Good, 38% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale, 30% Good, 61% Neutral, 9% Not Good.

Now if we compared it to a CBM from that same year that did much less at the box office:

• With 1 and 10:  
  • With a two-point scale (Good, Not Good), 71% Good, 29% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale (Good, Neutral, Not Good), 39% Good, 55% Neutral, 6% Not Good.
• W/O 1 and 10: 
  • With a two-point scale, 70% Good, 30% Not Good.
  • With a three-point scale, 34% Good, 61% Neutral, 5% Not Good.

It would appear with a two-point scale (Rotten Tomatoes method) Shazam really stands out as a positive, while with a three-point scale (Metacritic method) Shazam slightly edges out Captain Marvel with audience positive reactions.

Or was this all manipulated as well?

You basically prove my earlier point.  The 10 and 1's tend to cancel each other out as demonstrated by removing those scores does not significantly affect the overall score. To take this further, if we accept that review bombing is only going to award the lowest score, and review inflation is only going to award the highest (meaning 1's and 10's), it is reasonable to infer that both happen.  This is confirmed by showing how removing the extreme scores has no significant effect on the overall rating (in theory all the scores intended to skew the results).

 

I think this cancellation effect is even strengthened by you picking Shazam as a comparison.  I don't think there were any accusations of bombing associated with this film. Yet the IMBD review is similarly affected when you remove the 10's and 1's.  So yes, Captain Marvel my have been review bombed, but there was enough manipulation on both sies that they cancel each other out.  I have always contended that when you see a reverse bell curve on any aggregate site, this is evidence for manipulation, period.  In statistics, natural curves almost always fall into the bell curve family. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:17 PM, drotto said:

When is RT ever accurate?  It is subject to review bombing, and it is subject to review inflation.  The score is either reliable or not.  You always pick and choice when to use it.  With Captain Marvel you dismiss it because the score may have been negatively skewed, but when convenient you highlight RT as proof that the audience loves something. Just as with many people, you use the score when it support your argument, but will quickly dismiss it as junk, when you disagree with what it is showing. 

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:06 PM, drotto said:

You basically prove my earlier point.  The 10 and 1's tend to cancel each other out as demonstrated by removing those scores does not significantly affect the overall score. To take this further, if we accept that review bombing is only going to award the lowest score, and review inflation is only going to award the highest (meaning 1's and 10's), it is reasonable to infer that both happen.  This is confirmed by showing how removing the extreme scores has no significant effect on the overall rating (in theory all the scores intended to skew the results).

 

I think this cancellation effect is even strengthened by you picking Shazam as a comparison.  I don't think there were any accusations of bombing associated with this film. Yet the IMBD review is similarly affected when you remove the 10's and 1's.  So yes, Captain Marvel my have been review bombed, but there was enough manipulation on both sies that they cancel each other out.  I have always contended that when you see a reverse bell curve on any aggregate site, this is evidence for manipulation, period.  In statistics, natural curves almost always fall into the bell curve family. 

All you really have to do with both Captain Marvel and Shazam's IMDB User Ratings is look at where the largest numbers congregate. Both hover around 7 without using a calculator. Fine. Captain Marvel and Shazam were both on average 7.0 movies when it comes to fan favorability. I can accept that. Captain Marvel wasn't a 45% favorability movie like the highly manipulated RT audience rating that Capra threw up above.

[@therealsilvermane]

Captain Marvel-led ‘Avengers’ #1 launching May 17th

The all-new Avengers lineup will be led by Captain Marvel and includes Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, and Vision.

And as it goes in the comics, so it goes in the movies, so sayeth Kevin Feige.

2023 will be the Year of Captain Marvel. And the rabbit...

[drotto]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:56 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Captain Marvel-led ‘Avengers’ #1 launching May 17th

The all-new Avengers lineup will be led by Captain Marvel and includes Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, and Vision.

And as it goes in the comics, so it goes in the movies, so sayeth Kevin Feige.

2023 will be the Year of Captain Marvel. And the rabbit...

And the MCU will continue its decline just like the comics.  Awsome Idea!!!!!

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:00 PM, drotto said:

And the MCU will continue its decline just like the comics.

To start Phase Five, we've got main villain Kang and Adam Warlock making their movie debuts, and China back at the Marvel table. The numbers will only go up.

[Bosco685]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:04 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

To start Phase Five, we've got main villain Kang and Adam Warlock making their movie debuts, and China back at the Marvel table. The numbers will only go up.

Wait. I thought box office isn't that important?! These ever-rotating pearls of success wisdom...

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:52 AM, Bosco685 said:

Wait. I thought box office isn't that important?! These ever-rotating pearls of success wisdom...

Did I say money doesn't matter? I don't believe I did. What I said was that box office isn't the the primary parameter for judging if a movie is good i.e. Avatar WoW.

Movies cost money and need to make money in return to even talk about them being any kind of "success." Drotto above said that the MCU will continue to decline in Phase Five. "Decline" can mean several things and I assume it was meant quality and box office. I retorted that story-wise, we will start to see the new big villain Kang start to matter in the MCU films and we'll see the debut of fan-favorite Adam Warlock, two big MCU story developments. Box office wise, they should see a boost due to the return of China as a box office market. My point above was both story and box office will conceivably get a big boost to start Phase Five. Savvy?

[Bosco685]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:10 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Did I say money doesn't matter? I don't believe I did. What I said was that box office isn't the the primary parameter for judging if a movie is good i.e. Avatar WoW.

Movies cost money and need to make money in return to even talk about them being any kind of "success." Drotto above said that the MCU will continue to decline in Phase Five. "Decline" can mean several things and I assume it was meant quality and box office. I retorted that story-wise, we will start to see the new big villain Kang start to matter in the MCU films and we'll see the debut of fan-favorite Adam Warlock, two big MCU story developments. Box office wise, they should see a boost due to the return of China as a box office market. My point above was both story and box office will conceivably get a big boost to start Phase Five. Savvy?

Savvy? 

If you say so. Watching you get wrapped around the axle attacking Cameron's storytelling because you took it upon yourself to serve as the MCU zivic is kind of sad. The guy has a right to speak up about his industry, as even with the tiniest of franchises he delivers without a massive multi-movie buildup. And he is about to be the first director in Hollywood history with 3x $2B films.

Added to the situation is the box office isn't everything when a film is surging to $2B but then it matters when it involves what you are fanatical over, it comes across as 'say anything' logic.

[drotto]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:10 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Did I say money doesn't matter? I don't believe I did. What I said was that box office isn't the the primary parameter for judging if a movie is good i.e. Avatar WoW.

Movies cost money and need to make money in return to even talk about them being any kind of "success." Drotto above said that the MCU will continue to decline in Phase Five. "Decline" can mean several things and I assume it was meant quality and box office. I retorted that story-wise, we will start to see the new big villain Kang start to matter in the MCU films and we'll see the debut of fan-favorite Adam Warlock, two big MCU story developments. Box office wise, they should see a boost due to the return of China as a box office market. My point above was both story and box office will conceivably get a big boost to start Phase Five. Savvy?

If you want to take the route, Ok let's take that route. Marvel movies are getting progressively more expensive.  The Original Thor cost $150 million, the last Thor cost $250.  BP 1 was $200, the second cost $250. By all reports marketing budges have skyrocketed, where a 2 to 2.5 multiple used to be the mark of profitability, we are now looking at 2.5 to 3. Yet the raw number of movies viewers is clearly declining, and in most cases so is the Box Office.  This is a massive problem, because even big numbers to do not mean anything when your movies now need to hit $700 to $800 million before they start making money, That will quickly become unsustainable. We now have proof that the Superhero strangle hold on top grosses over the last 10 years has been broken, and we can no longer blame the pandemic.  We have Top Gun Maverick and Avatar 2, that cleaned Marvels clock last year.  It proves give the general, biggest audience what it wants and you can still make lots and lots of money.  I will admit, I though that the Pandemic had killed the billion dollar movie, I was clearly wrong.  But it does mean, that Marvel is missing the mark, since billion dollars movies are still here. If these movies can succeed to that extent, it means that the MCU is no longer giving the "normie" or the widest general audience what it is looking for anymore. That could be superhero fatigue, or it could be that the stories and characters being presented have declined in quality and are no capturing the same level of interest.

 

Yes, the next big MCU thing that gets all those people back could still be out there, it could even be in phase 5.  It sure as heck was not in phase 4, and if phase 5 is the house being built on the phase 4 foundation  you are on some very shaky ground.  You bring up Kang and Adam Warlock, and while they may mean something to comic readers, they mean nothing to the average person, who you need to get their butts back into seats, or phase 5 will continue to dwindle the MCU.  Kang made a ripple not a splash in Loki, and you are giving him a more formal introduction in Quantimania, which is a sequel to one of the weaker branches of the MCU.  Probably not the best place to start with him. Follow up with Warlock being in the final James Gunn, MCU film, and he is defecting to the enemy.  Other writers have had difficulties using Gunn characters to the same affect, but sure this is also a great place for him to start. You have been saying for 3 years, this show or movie or character is the next big thing for the MCU. None have panned out, and the box office returns and viewership verify this.  So, I just see this as you proclaiming the next big things as being hopeful for something you clearly love, and I am happy for you that you love it, but it shows little regard for reality. For 10 plus year the MCU had an unprecedented and remarkable run.  I loved every minute of it (ok most minutes), but that is impossible to maintain forever.

 

Do not even get me started on China.  That magic market that Hollywood has been bending over for for at least 10 years.  There have been a few successes there, but for the most part it has been a pipe dream.  Plus, the return to the studio from China is very lower, in the range of 20% to 25% of the Box Office.  This means you number there have to be massive to make a significant impact on your bottom line. China is wishful thinking. Marvel movies getting released there again means very little to the bottom line, and just a little twitch from the government there, and even that is gone again.

 

In my opinion, only the X-Men or maybe a Fantastic Four movie finally done right, can revitalize the MCU.

Edited January 22, 2023 by drotto

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:56 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Captain Marvel-led ‘Avengers’ #1 launching May 17th

The all-new Avengers lineup will be led by Captain Marvel and includes Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, and Vision.

And as it goes in the comics, so it goes in the movies, so sayeth Kevin Feige.

2023 will be the Year of Captain Marvel. And the rabbit...

I haven't been keeping up with new comics.  Just curious, what is the current state of Steve Rogers on Earth-616?

[Straw-Man]

On 1/21/2023 at 10:33 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I haven't been keeping up with new comics.  Just curious, what is the current state of Steve Rogers on Earth-616?

there he is trans and has dropped "america" because it was stolen land--they are now "countess turtle island."  they have ditched the shield, as mining is evil.  they have a little tofu-based parasol for protection in battle.  but few battles occur; when disputes arise, they go to a safe space to kumbaya it out.  "we can do this all day" is an oft-used phrase there.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Straw-Man

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/21/2023 at 11:33 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I haven't been keeping up with new comics.  Just curious, what is the current state of Steve Rogers on Earth-616?

Steve Rogers is still active as Cap in his own recently rebooted series that runs concurrent with a Sam Wilson Cap rebooted series. The two series will cross over in an event series called Captain America Cold War this spring.

Edited January 22, 2023 by @therealsilvermane

[@therealsilvermane]

On 1/21/2023 at 2:44 PM, Bosco685 said:

Added to the situation is the box office isn't everything when a film is surging to $2B but then it matters when it involves what you are fanatical over, it comes across as 'say anything' logic.

When I criticized the $2B Avatar WoW outside of my fan review here, I was specifically referring to James Cameron's criticism over the portrayal of family and individual growth in super-hero movies, and that I felt some super-hero movies did the "family" thing better than Mr Cameron did in Avatar 2. It had nothing to do with the movie's box office or how much folks liked the movie or not. I don't care if Avatar 2 makes $4B. I will still feel that his portrayal of family life in Avatar 2 was weak when compared to some super-hero movies, like Black Widow, Shang-Chi, or Ant-Man.

And when it comes to a popular blockbuster type movie, I don't think I've ever discounted box office receipts. And there are caveats to that, too. When looking at the muted box office receipts of movies like WW84, Dune, or Shang-Chi, you can't discount the fact that they were released during the pandemic or lacked a China release, which is probably the only times I've put an asterisk on box office receipts of some movies i.e. Eternals and Shang-Chi.

[chezmtghut]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:16 AM, Straw-Man said:

there he is trans and has dropped "america" because it was stolen land--they are now "countess turtle island."  they have ditched the shield, as mining is evil.  they have a little tofu-based parasol for protection in battle.  but few battles occur; when disputes arise, they go to a safe space to kumbaya it out.  "we can do this all day" is an oft-used phrase there.

I read this & it made me think of a music video I recently saw. Probably best not to watch for anyone sensitive about the topic though. I’m sure this song has upset many people already.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by chezmtghut

[drotto]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:24 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

When I criticized the $2B Avatar WoW outside of my fan review here, I was specifically referring to James Cameron's criticism over the portrayal of family and individual growth in super-hero movies, and that I felt some super-hero movies did the "family" thing better than Mr Cameron did in Avatar 2. It had nothing to do with the movie's box office or how much folks liked the movie or not. I don't care if Avatar 2 makes $4B. I will still feel that his portrayal of family life in Avatar 2 was weak when compared to some super-hero movies, like Black Widow, Shang-Chi, or Ant-Man.

And when it comes to a popular blockbuster type movie, I don't think I've ever discounted box office receipts. And there are caveats to that, too. When looking at the muted box office receipts of movies like WW84, Dune, or Shang-Chi, you can't discount the fact that they were released during the pandemic or lacked a China release, which is probably the only times I've put an asterisk on box office receipts of some movies i.e. Eternals and Shang-Chi.

I will concede, that Shang-Chi would have done better without the Pandemic, I think it is safe to say it cost the film $150 to $200 million. Eternals would have bombed regardless.

 

You are conflating two arguments.  You make the statement about how Cameron portrays families, and  it may be valid.  That has zero effect on the box office, you can not criticism the $2 billion box office based on that argument, because your viewpoint on family representation, has had ZERO effect.  Even this statement on it is confusing and somewhat contradictory  The portrayal of family in Shang-Chi is not strong, it is downright toxic if it is in reference to "traditional" family, everyone hates and is fighting everyone.  Again in Ant-Man Scott is a borderline dead beat father looking to redeem himself, and his wife hates him and is remarried.  Again, not a functional family. Black Widow is the different kind of family portrayal, and while that has it's place it is again very dysfunctional.  From a pure "traditional" definitional of family, the one we are given in Avatar 2, even with is issues, is closest to what most people view as a family. So yes, many people are connecting with it. It is also the most functional and tight knit of the above examples.

 

In the modern world we have come to embrace, except, and expanded the concept of family, but all the examples you provided above are not happy functional families by any definition.  Are there arcs were the members are trying to be better at it yes, but non are stable and fully functional, except for the one in Avatar. 

[godzilla43]

Films like Avatar, Black Widow, Shang-Chi or Ant-Man really ain't about some family drama. People are going to see those films about aliens, action and super heroes and that what the companies are giving us. Elements like family drama on films like that are as significant than what sneakers characters are wearing. (Not to confuse anyone I know that Avatars don't have shoes)

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 1/23/2023 at 1:38 AM, godzilla43 said:

Films like Avatar, Black Widow, Shang-Chi or Ant-Man really ain't about some family drama. People are going to see those films about aliens, action and super heroes and that what the companies are giving us. Elements like family drama on films like that are as significant than what sneakers characters are wearing. (Not to confuse anyone I know that Avatars don't have shoes)

I dunno, when the main characters from the first movie have like half a dozen kids (including two they adopted) and those kids take up about 75% of the action in the sequel, I would say it's a family movie.  Just about every scene in the movie involved literal "family drama" -- including husband and wife arguing about parenting strategies, rebellious teens, sibling rivalries, and so on.  Plus almost every action scene basically boiled down to one family member having to rescue another.  Oh, and they also met a whole new tribe and we got to see how that family operates too, along with multiple scenes where one dad has to apologize to the other dad for what his kid did, and one mom wanting nothing to do with the other mom, and all that.

I realize this isn't the Avatar thread, but I do think that needed to be said!