THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[fantastic_four]

Marvel used to report sales numbers on a page in their comics from time to time before they started using Diamond.  After that I think Diamond was reporting them in that magazine they used to print for a long time, "Previews" I think it was called.

So sales figures are definitely out there, I just don't know of any one place to find them right now.

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:40 PM, fantastic_four said:

Marvel used to report sales numbers on a page in their comics from time to time before they started using Diamond.  After that I think Diamond was reporting them in that magazine they used to print for a long time, "Previews" I think it was called.

So sales figures are definitely out there, I just don't know of any one place to find them right now.

I know that they're out there on the net. I just can't go down another rabbit hole right now. I have too many body parts stuck in other rabbit holes currently.

 

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:38 PM, kimik said:

I was exposed to the Adams/O'Neill Batman and Tec runs when I started collecting in the early 1990s and was blown away by how good the stories and artwork were for a DC book. Those two must have worked more closely together than the normal DC teams did as it was basically at a Marvel level of storytelling.

Personally, I liked the DC stories over Marvel, and Marvel characters over DC. As for art, that was a toss-up due to crossover between the companies. I liked Adams on Detective, Batman, Deadman, and the horror titles. At Marvel, Adams seemed less "Adams" somehow, though I still liked his work (a lot) on Avengers and X-Men. Berni Wrightson was my favorite when I was a kid, primarily for the horror titles, but also Swamp Thing (of course). Next favorites were Frank Frazetta (on EC titles and various covers, like Famous Funnies and Buster Crabbe), Al Williamson (EC only), Carl Barks (He is now my favorite artist, but back then, just one of my favorites), and Will Eisner. At Marvel, I liked Steranko, Barry Smith, Starlin, Byrne (though he was a latecomer), Perez (another late addition), and Gil Kane. However, all of my favorite artists were associated with DC. 

The weird thing about Marvel is that they didn't have my favorite stories or artists, but they did have my favorite characters. I liked Daredevil over Batman, Spider-Man over Superman, Vision over Deadman, and on and on. This should have told me that I liked Marvel's stories more than I thought, but at the time, was less sophisticated in my literary appreciation. 

Looking back on it now, My list of favorite artists has changed considerably. Starlin and Barry Smith have dropped off the list. Most of the DC artists are still liked, but well below artists I didn't think much of when I was younger: Curt Swan, Jack Kirby, John Romita, Don Heck, John Buscema, John Byrne, and Gil Kane are now my favorites at Marvel. I still like the Adams DC work, but no longer consider him the greatest comic book artist. This is primarily because his storytelling style draws too much attention to itself.

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:41 PM, VintageComics said:

My first newsstand X-men comic was #118. That RED double splash on pages 2-3 just destroyed me (in a good way). 

I think my first comic straight off the newsstand was Avengers #93. Not totally sure about that, but if it isn't, it's close. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:47 PM, paqart said:

Personally, I liked the DC stories over Marvel, and Marvel characters over DC. As for art, that was a toss-up due to crossover between the companies. I liked Adams on Detective, Batman, Deadman, and the horror titles. At Marvel, Adams seemed less "Adams" somehow, though I still liked his work (a lot) on Avengers and X-Men. Berni Wrightson was my favorite when I was a kid, primarily for the horror titles, but also Swamp Thing (of course). Next favorites were Frank Frazetta (on EC titles and various covers, like Famous Funnies and Buster Crabbe), Al Williamson (EC only), Carl Barks (He is now my favorite artist, but back then, just one of my favorites), and Will Eisner. At Marvel, I liked Steranko, Barry Smith, Starlin, Byrne (though he was a latecomer), Perez (another late addition), and Gil Kane. However, all of my favorite artists were associated with DC. 

The weird thing about Marvel is that they didn't have my favorite stories or artists, but they did have my favorite characters. I liked Daredevil over Batman, Spider-Man over Superman, Vision over Deadman, and on and on. This should have told me that I liked Marvel's stories more than I thought, but at the time, was less sophisticated in my literary appreciation. 

Looking back on it now, My list of favorite artists has changed considerably. Starlin and Barry Smith have dropped off the list. Most of the DC artists are still liked, but well below artists I didn't think much of when I was younger: Curt Swan, Jack Kirby, John Romita, Don Heck, John Buscema, John Byrne, and Gil Kane are now my favorites at Marvel. I still like the Adams DC work, but no longer consider him the greatest comic book artist. This is primarily because his storytelling style draws too much attention to itself.

You've never mentioned Miller once and I'm curious as to why?

[fantastic_four]

I guess I get the gender politics angle umbrage that many take over either Brie Larson or Captain Marvel as a whole, but it's so much more simple than that I don't see why it should be an issue.

DC has long had Wonder Woman as one of its most popular characters, but Marvel has NEVER had any equivalent top-tier female character.  I had been generally aware of that for decades, so when they first announced the Captain Marvel movie the Wonder Woman movie was either in development or already out, so I figured that was Feige and his team realizing it was long past time to try to sell to girls more than they historically were able to do as compared to DC.  He was a producer on Elektra, but that was driven more by Fox's ownership of her rights than her actual popularity.  I assumed Feige and his advisors tried to identify what they thought would be the most popular female character in their stable and picked Captain Marvel.  Maybe they were right, I dunno.  If someone can name another Marvel female character that could potentially be more popular than Danvers please do share...I can't think of any.  

Disney's primary motivator is greed, and pushing Captain Marvel was primarily driven by that greed.  As far as I can tell it worked to an extent because the film did decently and my daughter definitely likes her, although she's still nowhere near as popular as Wonder Woman.

Edited November 9, 2023 by fantastic_four

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:30 PM, VintageComics said:

As a counterpoint, I actually reviled Byrne's art during that part. He started in #232 IIRC and I was shocked at how schlocky it looked to me.

Did you know that Byrne did a short stint a few years prior? The art was incredible and the story telling was pretty good. 

FF was a really good read in the 80's. What I think was part of the FF's decline in popularity was the onset of public media. The 80s were the onset of an explosion of pop culture through public media worldwide. We had MTV, Max Headroom, much more cartoons and comics entertainment (it was IMPOSSIBLE to find comic related material before that) and of course 24/7 broadcasting. 

Before the 80's most channels in North American went dark overnight. 

So I think the story telling in the FF was top notch but what the public wanted was changing and reading about a family was no longer in vogue. 

My favorite Byrne work was Next Men and Fantastic Four.

[kimik]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:47 AM, paqart said:

Personally, I liked the DC stories over Marvel, and Marvel characters over DC. As for art, that was a toss-up due to crossover between the companies. I liked Adams on Detective, Batman, Deadman, and the horror titles. At Marvel, Adams seemed less "Adams" somehow, though I still liked his work (a lot) on Avengers and X-Men.

I think it was due to the inker. At DC it was Giordano, who had a style more like Adams on the books he drew on his own. With Marvel it was Palmer if I recall correctly, and the lines were not as nice.

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:50 PM, VintageComics said:

You've never mentioned Miller once and I'm curious as to why?

Funny you should ask. There was a very brief time in my life when I attended college and didn't buy comics. That was when Frank Miller was introduced to the world. By the time I got back into comics, he was moving into film with his script for Robocop. I am certainly aware of his work and did become interested in it as back issues. At first, he was described to me as a great artist. I later came to the conclusion he was a much better writer than artist. However, he had his brilliant moments as an artist, like the Elektra graphic novel, Ronin, and the Sin City stories. That said, the reason I don't talk about him much is that his writing is so sadistic that I don't like thinking about the stories, let alone reading them. It is the same problem I have with most of Kirby's Fourth World stories. Between Desaad, Darkseid, and Granny Goodness, there's enough sadism for a new Netflix original series. 

Miller is also one of the best, along with Harvey Kurtzman and Jack Kirby, at comic book layouts. Not finishes or pencils, but layouts. Miller's finishes are sometimes just fine, even great, but like Vincent van Gogh, they aren't all great. Most are not. Many are fairly ordinary and look better than they are thanks to the layout underneath. At the end of the day though, I really dislike the content of his stories. Some years ago, I found my old leatherbound copy of Dark Knight and Year One stories drawn by Mazzuchelli. I opened it to read but was so disgusted that I wanted the book out of my house. I lived in Europe at the time, where Miller wasn't as popular. I saw that book selling for around $450 in the US, but I traded it for about 75 euros worth of Franka comics by the Dutch artist Henk Kuypers. In my mind, I took a loss on the book just to rid my house of its reek.

I did something similar with my old ECs. Around the time my daughter was born, my wife started teaching her to read. She was able to read fairly well by the time she was two, but she could spell words on our refrigerator using refrigerator magnets before she could talk. Because of this, I was concerned she would pull out a volume from my Russ Cochran library and see a decapitated head or something equally violent. My daughter was in full exploration mode at the time, so the only way to ensure she wasn't confronted with those images was to get them out of the house. For that reason, though I had the full Russ Cochran library, I sold all but Two-Fisted Tales, Frontline Combat, and Extra! (as my representative Johnny Craig). Later, my daughter dug into my full Carl Barks library, and read every volume dozens of times. It got to the point where she could quote Barks quite easily, and if you quoted Barks, she could tell you the story it came from, who said it, and the context.

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:51 PM, fantastic_four said:

I guess I get the gender politics angle umbrage that many take over either Brie Larson or Captain Marvel as a whole, but it's so much more simple than that I don't see why it should be an issue.

DC has long had Wonder Woman as one of its most popular characters, but Marvel has NEVER had any equivalent top-tier female character.  I had been generally aware of that for decades, so when they first announced the Captain Marvel movie the Wonder Woman movie was either in development or already out, so I figured that was Feige and his team realizing it was long past time to try to sell to girls more than they historically were able to do as compared to DC.  He was a producer on Elektra, but that was driven more by Fox's ownership of her rights than her actual popularity.  I assumed Feige and his advisors tried to identify what they thought would be the most popular female character in their stable and picked Captain Marvel.  Maybe they were right, I dunno.  If someone can name another Marvel female character that could potentially be more popular than Danvers please do share...I can't think of any.  

Disney's primary motivator is greed, and pushing Captain Marvel was primarily driven by that greed.  As far as I can tell it worked to an extent because the film did decently and my daughter definitely likes her, although she's still nowhere near as popular as Wonder Woman.

Phoenix/Marvel Girl was much more popular than Ms. Marvel. However, Marvel didn't have the rights to the X-Men characters, many of who are female. Ditto for Sue Storm. They did have the Scarlet Witch, who in my opinion is currently the most interesting character in the MCU, alongside Dr. Strange. After her, you're right, it's slim pickings. Tigra, Black Cat, Black Widow (already used), Wasp (already used), Spider-Woman, etc, all derivative. DC did have a lot of female characters that weren't based on popular male characters, particularly in the Justice Society.

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:55 PM, kimik said:

I think it was due to the inker. At DC it was Giordano, who had a style more like Adams on the books he drew on his own. With Marvel it was Palmer if I recall correctly, and the lines were not as nice.

That may be. It also may be the way Adams saw the characters. Marvels, at least the ones drawn by Adams, were more sci-fi than fantasy or realism, but he excelled at realism. Even Green Lantern, who could easily be heavy duty sci-fi, was earthbound for most of the issues by Adams.

[Bosco685]

 

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[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:51 PM, fantastic_four said:

I guess I get the gender politics angle umbrage that many take over either Brie Larson or Captain Marvel as a whole, but it's so much more simple than that I don't see why it should be an issue.

I think that's ALL just an extrapolated concern that people have that they'll be forced to like something they don't. That's all. And people DO over react. 

And the over reaction is valid sometimes, as it feels like it's being rammed down people's throats unnaturally...and it kind of is. 

Even on here you've seen boardies pop in and try to stop a totally innocent, frank and productive discussion with force which is silly. 

On 11/9/2023 at 1:51 PM, fantastic_four said:

DC has long had Wonder Woman as one of its most popular characters, but Marvel has NEVER had any equivalent top-tier female character.  I had been generally aware of that for decades, so when they first announced the Captain Marvel movie the Wonder Woman movie was either in development or already out, so I figured that was Feige and his team realizing it was long past time to try to sell to girls more than they historically were able to do as compared to DC.  He was a producer on Elektra, but that was driven more by Fox's ownership of her rights than her actual popularity. 

Valid points.

If there's one question I'd like to ask Stan, it would be WHY he never came out with a character to rival Wonder Woman and the answer may speak more toward culture than anything else. 

As has been stated, women were thought of as being in more traditional roles pre 1980s (duh, obviously) so seeing a woman in tights would have been quite....off putting for many at the time. Today, in Canada we have topless laws where women can walk around topless in public, legally as a human right. But that would have been a tough sell before. 

But do you know what the history behind Wonder Woman's creation is?

Many don't. 

Wonder Woman was borne out of S+M and bondage culture. William Moulton Marston had a wife and they had a mistress and for a long time and they lived together as lovers.

Most of the popular things about Wonder Woman came out of that culture: The lasso / wrist bands (bondage), the invisible jet (voyeurism), the truth telling power of the lasso (SM), her being the lead over Steve in the story (more SM).

It's important to point out that Marston genuinely loved and respected women from everything I've read and elevated them to equal standing with men in his own life, but I'm not sure if Wonder Woman would still have been a prominent character if this was common knowledge back in 1940.

They even made a movie about it a few years ago. 

Maybe this is why Stan Lee didn't want to pursue the Wonder Woman avenue circa 1961. Imagine the fallout if cancel culture associated a new female character with this history 60 years ago?

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by VintageComics

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Credits scenes explained

Spoiler

 

 

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[Bosco685]

It is sounding like Ms. Marvel was the big hit in this movie. Good on that actress.

[pemart1966]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:37 PM, thegiftedone45 said:

Just shocking.  A character no one really cared about except when they teased her at the end of Infinity war and kept talking about how she'd have a big part in Endgame....which leads to her first movie (which was horrible) being successful because insufficiently_thoughtful_persons like me believed them when they said she'd have a big part in Endgame. Too bad they can't use that same trick for this one (they can but no one really cares about the Avengers movie coming out).  What makes it even better is they're putting in Khamala Khan who had by far the lowest numbers of any + show in this like she will bring people out to see this.  Sorry I'm still ticked off I used my hard earned money to watch Captain Marvel.....it was so bad.

It was on TV here a few nights ago.  I watched the start of it and...yup...it was just as bad as I remember it.  What a horrible waste of time and money.  Is there a worse MCU movie?  

The only thing that I took from it was how Nick Fury's eyes patch cam to be.