THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Nick Furious]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:48 PM, VintageComics said:

I actually don't know if I would have considered Iron Man an A-list character in 2008

Iron Man Underoos were available for purchase in 1978.  That's my bar for determining A-list...if the characters Underoos were available before the MCU.   

[paqart]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:57 PM, Nick Furious said:

Iron Man Underoos were available for purchase in 1978.  That's my bar for determining A-list...if the characters Underoos were available before the MCU.   

Does that mean that Spider-Woman, Ms. Marvel, Shang-Chi, and Nova were all A-list? I was going to point out that the first Wolverine merchandise appears around 1994, but then I reread your post. 1994 is still before the movies, but not by much.

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:15 PM, paqart said:

My favorite comic books are all Disney properties. My favorite one thousand or so comic books all feature Donald Duck. That likely won't change because each story has intrinsic merit that will not vanish over time. The value of the Disney logo, however, could vanish very quickly, and is already happening. Unfortunately, their purchase of Marvel, Pixar, and Star Wars has already tainted all three of those brands.

I've been an automotive guy since about 1985 (I was born in 1970) and have been obsessed with exotic cars ever since. I spent 22 years in that industry. It was literally my life. My, routine in my 20s was to wake up, pour some cereal and read a maintenance manual over breakfast.

Specifically, my favorite car was Porsche. It has nothing to do with being bougie or extravagant. It's all about the engineering, the racing heritage, the drive toward perfection...what I loved about Porsche was their goal of building the absolute best sports car they could with integrity.

Anyone who knows anything about German culture knows that taking a shortcut or compromising integrity was not acceptable under any circumstances. You did it correctly or you didn't do it. Those were the only two options and they didn't take shortcuts. It was my favorite thing about the culture.

My favorite car has always been the 911 Turbo. The way a Turbocharger works, is that the you need exhaust gasses to power the turbo. That means if the car has no exhaust, it cannot have a turbocharger. 

Porsche recently announced that once the internal combustion engine is done away with, they will be selling a "Turbo trim kit" option on their cars. I think the price was something like $15,000 for the "trim option".

It made me want to puke. 

This car company that I had loved for nearly 40 years and even worked for at one time was willing to slap a Turbo STICKER on a car, make it a "TRIM OPTION" to keep the visual appeal EVEN THOUGH THE CAR WOULD NO LONGER HAVE A TURBO.

It was an easy decision that took me couple of minutes to make once I heard that.

I no longer love Porsche. They compromised the product by compromising their integrity, were willing to lie to the people to grab their money and they lost a lifelong customer that would have run the gamut for them. 

This is what corporate greed does. It simply eviscerates their own. 

The same pattern can  be applied to every industry and Disney did it to one of the largest stars to ever grace their screens. 

Depp made $255 MILLION over 5 Pirates films from Disney. 

If they did it to him, just imagine how little they care about you. 

 

[drotto]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:53 PM, Nick Furious said:

I don't think we can overlook the overt desire to expand the audience, specifically to bring in younger females.  It became obvious to me around 2020-2021 when my daughter, 11 at the time, suddenly knew more about the MCU than I did.  It was a lot of promotion through social media.  It also seems to me that a decision was made to increase the humor/silliness level in the MCU as well as the complexity of the interconnection between movies/shows.  Humor in a non-comedy movie is like seasoning in a recipe.  It works in the right quantities, not so much in large quantities.  I think the same is true of interconnection and required viewing of previous shows in order to appreciate the one you are currently watching.  It only works in appropriate quantities.  

Unfortunately, in the pursuit of a new audience, they lost far more fans then they gained. They already had the largest movie franchise ever. They already had a massive and diverse fanbase. After all the movies leading up to Endgame, I would argue they had already captured virtually everyone that would be interested in this type of entertainment. They made a significant miscalculation that there was a massive untapped pool of fans, if they just made certain changes. In reality, that pool of people either does not exist, or is relatively small. In addition, they thought existing fans would except the changes without question, because it was Marvel and they had banked a massive amount of goodwill.  I think this arrogance also extended to the series.  The fans will watch because it is the MCU, and therefor they could have even more interconnectivity, and pump out and endless stream of content.  Again, they are learning the hard way that most casual fans (and many previous hard core fans) are not watching the streaming shows, as shown by the low and declining ratings. Which has created a new level of problems. 

 

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:21 PM, fantastic_four said:

Feige's main problem with the films since Endgame has been twofold--he got severely derailed by Covid which lengthened phases 4 and 5 too much and delayed FF and X-Men, and he rested on his laurels from the Infinity Saga and decided to try to establish C and D list characters without anchoring the phases with more top-tier characters.  We would have been on to phase 6 by now and wouldn't be lingering so long on the lack of top-tier characters in phase 4 and 5, but Covid dragged them both out another 1.5 to 2 years which is really accentuating the lack of more compelling characters.

Do you think he tried to establish the C and D characters because he sat on his laurels, or because he was stalling until they could get the FF and X contracts to expire so that Marvel could start from scratch with those franchises? Because the latter is what I had heard. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:15 PM, paqart said:

That would be like telling someone that their necktie is tied wrong while their hair is on fire. In that situation, no one should care about the necktie.

I'm dead. I love this.

[drotto]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:21 PM, fantastic_four said:

This thread is teetering on the brink of getting locked.

Feige's main problem with the films since Endgame has been twofold--he got severely derailed by Covid which lengthened phases 4 and 5 too much and delayed FF and X-Men, and he rested on his laurels from the Infinity Saga and decided to try to establish C and D list characters without anchoring the phases with more top-tier characters.  We would have been on to phase 6 by now and wouldn't be lingering so long on the lack of top-tier characters in phase 4 and 5, but Covid dragged them both out another 1.5 to 2 years which is really accentuating the lack of more compelling characters.

His other problem has been trying to tackle Disney Plus series.  He knows films, but wow, he does not know how to make great serial television shows.  Virtually every one is like a 2-hour movie padded out to 6 to 10 hours.  They're all pretty mediocre.

I think the main problem is that after Endgame they really did not have a plan, and it really was the first time when Feige was totally on his own. Remember, Perlmutter and to and extent Favreau were a significant part in the planning the MCU up to and including Endgame. I am not sure how you can even argue that COVID has effected the MCU, it may have forced some changes, but it did not slow releases. Despite the shutdowns, they continued to roll out 2 or 3 movie per year, as well as the streaming shows.  Phase 4 was the largest phase of the MCU based on the number of projects released. The first 3 phases took 12 years, we are now in phase 5 after only 4 years. That is not a slower pace, if anything they accelerated the pace.  Thus them slowly realizing they need to slow down and not just keep rushing through.

 

I will however agree that Feige is incompetent when it comes to series. The primary issue with the shows (and to a large extent the movies) is they are ignoring the tried and true way of making a series.  Do a pilot.  Figure out what works and does not work based on the pilot.  Outline the season plot.  Get your SCRIPTS WRITTEN AND NAILED DOWN.  Start filming. Instead, they start shooting what what amounts to a glorified outline, that is continually being tweaked and reworked as they go. If they get into post and something does now work, they go back to filing pickup scenes, which are often extensive.  They then go back into post and try and patchwork everything together.  They need to stop thinking everything can be fixed in post!!!  Writing is the foundation, and everything after will fail if that is not sound.  I am not sure how they lost sight of that. That is why the end results is often disjointed, with tonal issues, plot holes, and long dull expository scenes shot cheaply to try to patch up the problems. 

 

I also agree that the approach to phase 4 should have been very different, but it is easy to say that in hindsight, and when we have no say over the decisions that Disney makes.  They should probably have pulled way back on content after Endgame, and maybe have taken 2 or 3 years off.  Then started to build again from almost the ground up, similar to what was done in Phases 1 and 2.  Bring in the Fantastic Four.  Bring in the X-Men.  You know that these characters are popular,  fans want to see them, and have shown they can work on film (Ok maybe just the X-Men on that one).  The reliance on new characters, and characters with a poor record in the comics in was a baffling decision, but again maybe just arrogance that they could make anything works after their unprecedented success.  They basically tried to do the movie version of the Marvel Now initiative circa 2016 in the comics, which also failed miserably. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:39 AM, drotto said:

On 11/9/2023 at 10:53 PM, Nick Furious said:

I don't think we can overlook the overt desire to expand the audience, specifically to bring in younger females.  It became obvious to me around 2020-2021 when my daughter, 11 at the time, suddenly knew more about the MCU than I did.  It was a lot of promotion through social media.  It also seems to me that a decision was made to increase the humor/silliness level in the MCU as well as the complexity of the interconnection between movies/shows.  Humor in a non-comedy movie is like seasoning in a recipe.  It works in the right quantities, not so much in large quantities.  I think the same is true of interconnection and required viewing of previous shows in order to appreciate the one you are currently watching.  It only works in appropriate quantities.  

Unfortunately, in the pursuit of a new audience, they lost far more fans then they gained. They already had the largest movie franchise ever. They already had a massive and diverse fanbase. After all the movies leading up to Endgame, I would argue they had already captured virtually everyone that would be interested in this type of entertainment. They made a significant miscalculation that there was a massive untapped pool of fans, if they just made certain changes. In reality, that pool of people either does not exist, or is relatively small. In addition, they thought existing fans would except the changes without question, because it was Marvel and they had banked a massive amount of goodwill.  I think this arrogance also extended to the series.  The fans will watch because it is the MCU, and therefor they could have even more interconnectivity, and pump out and endless stream of content.  Again, they are learning the hard way that most casual fans (and many previous hard core fans) are not watching the streaming shows, as shown by the low and declining ratings. Which has created a new level of problems. 

I think we're missing the most important part of the discussion. The decision making process has almost nothing to actually do with 'trying to appeal to an audience' anymore. It has to do with a top down, agreed upon corporate investment strategies among large corporations. The driver is not to appeal to consumers, it's to appeal to outside investors.

That's why Disney's decisions seem unusual to us average Joes. They're NOT TRYING TO APPEAL TO YOU.

It's these external forces that are ruining the art form. 

There's plenty of precedent for this. 

Sony's Spider-man #3 was an absolute hack of a job. Why? Too many people trying to call the shots, and you get all these ideas and characters pushed into a movie ruining the franchise. It was the absolute worst of the 3 movies and an absolute stinker. Sony even publicly admitted there were too many people involved! 

Batman vs Superman was another one. What should have been a triple length sequel that could have been a blockbuster 3 times over was a shoddy mess because external corporate pressures tried to rush the process and again, they jammed too much into one flick. 

What is happening is what happens in every industry that invests in art, in this order: The art form draws people in and becomes profitable, big money wants in on the profit, big money starts dictating the direction of the art, the art loses it's purity because of external pressures on the art form, and the art form is no longer the goal. Only profit is. So it's no longer art. It's an investment vehicle. 

It's the life story of every rock band in history.

-----------------------------------

Serotonin is the feel good chemical. It's why people eat sugary stuff. That hit makes them "feel good" like music or art does.

This article explains it:

A Tablespoon of Sugar Makes the Stress go Down

What big money has figured out is how to provide the path to hit the serotonin levels that make people "feel good" but they do it without need to actually have the full body of artwork. They just have the sweet spots pushed to the forefront to get as many people as high as possible. People go to these movies, they feel entertained but it's not fulfilling because it's hollow.

It's very much like a sugar high. You get the quick serotonin bump, but you don't have the substance or body where most of the true sustenance is and eventually, the bump won't be enough so it fades, unlike a complex carb, which builds energy and serotonin slowly over time, fills you up, feeds your body AND gives you a much longer lasting serotonin high that is more moderate and more appealing in the long run. 

When you leave a GREAT MOVIE it moves you. You think about it for days after. It may even force you to think about things you wouldn't have thought about. Very different than a sugar bump, it's more like a great meal. 

It's the same discussion over and over again: if the money is influencing the art, the art is going to suck. It's that simple.

It has always been this way and always will be.

Edited November 10, 2023 by VintageComics

[fantastic_four]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:45 PM, paqart said:

I enjoyed WandaVision, Loki, and She-Hulk.

Same, along with Hawkeye.  And most of the others, too, at least enough to finish them.  But none of them are even close to the quality of the Infinity Saga films, or any of the best "peak TV" series from the past decade or two.  If I weren't already in the bag for Marvel I probably wouldn't have watched any of them like I don't watch most of the DC shows.

[fantastic_four]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:40 AM, VintageComics said:

Do you think he tried to establish the C and D characters because he sat on his laurels, or because he was stalling until they could get the FF and X contracts to expire so that Marvel could start from scratch with those franchises? Because the latter is what I had heard. 

Stalling makes sense.  That's a lot of money to stall with though.   I think we mostly said the same thing--there's no way he's allowed to stall if he hadn't just made Disney more money than any other producer in film history, which is what I meant by resting on his laurels.  Or he took the 2-3 year break drotto suggested, except Feige's idea of a break is to trot out the bench warmers like a sports coach whose team is up by so much that it doesn't matter.

But he couldn't have known COVID would drag it out this long so I can't fully blame him.  The FF would most likely already be out or close to release if not for the delay.

Edited November 10, 2023 by fantastic_four

[fantastic_four]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:18 AM, drotto said:

I am not sure how you can even argue that COVID has effected the MCU, it may have forced some changes, but it did not slow releases. Despite the shutdowns, they continued to roll out 2 or 3 movie per yea

They lost at least a year, didn't they?  Nothing at all came out in 2020.  Black Widow was supposed to release in May 2020, but it was delayed until July 2021 and all of the other phase 4 films were also pushed back. There were no MCU movies between the July 2019 release of Far From Home and Black Widow in July 2021.

I'm not as clear on why they've continued delaying films since then as well, but they've done it half a dozen times now.  I notice that more than I used to because I buy Hasbro's action figures for the films, and Marvel has screwed them over repeatedly since COVID.  Hasbro tries to get the figures in the store around the release date for films, but Marvel keeps delaying everything so they end up in stores 6+ months early most of the time now.  The figures for The Marvels came and went in stores earlier this year, and the same happened for Black Panther 2, Eternals, Multiverse of Madness, Shang-Chi, and Love and Thunder.

Edited November 10, 2023 by fantastic_four

[Bosco685]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:18 AM, drotto said:

I think the main problem is that after Endgame they really did not have a plan, and it really was the first time when Feige was totally on his own. 

Why they are now changing their streaming series approach moving forward. Including - hold on to your hats - hiring showrunners like traditional TV shows.

 

[Bosco685]

Wow! Another reviewer that is normally super-high on MCU movies and shows surprised me.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Bosco685

[Bosco685]

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:43 AM, fantastic_four said:

They lost at least a year, didn't they?

That and another huge loss was losing him.

 

I heard a lot of rumors he would have led The Avengers in future movies. Terrible loss. 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking

[drotto]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:10 AM, Bosco685 said:

Why they are now changing their streaming series approach moving forward. Including - hold on to your hats - hiring showrunners like traditional TV shows.

 

I do not think most of these shows were intended as limited series. I think their internal numbers were so bad, they called them that to save face so the press would not report them as cancelled.  

 

Yes, I had heard they are finally hiring showrunners.  Again, really a bit too late after the hit to their reputation, and amount of money wasted. Again, I wonder what thought process lead to these decisions in the first place. Sometimes everyone does something a certain way, because it works. Feige just decided the throw all that out, and those about him said sure.

[drotto]

On 11/10/2023 at 8:17 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Another huge loss was losing him.

 

I heard a lot of rumors he would have led The Avengers in future movies. Terrible lost. 

Yes, this was a horrible lose, and a massive hit to their plans such as they were.  But it also goes back to something that has been discussed before.  Do the actors "own" the character or are they playing a part and can be replaced when needed.  The MCU seems to favor the one role one actor approach thus far, but Hulk, Spider-Man, War Machine, and now reportedly Ross have been recast. For the longevity of the MCU really needs to be more open to recasting. Technically, they are about to enter a massive round of recasting with Fantastic Four and thr X-Men.

[TupennyConan]

I guess a good What If? would be, what if Disney recast the entire MCU post-Endgame & started the universe all over again, this time with FF & XM. We'd get things like the original Human Torch & Sgt Fury. Atlantis. A proper version of Vision. Stuff like that.  

[Mr Sneeze]

Super hero movie fatigue. No genre lasts indefinitely. 

Wether you like/dislike them or they are awesome or not, general audiences are moving on with only fans remaining imho.

Disney, Warner, Sony etc should focus on providing a product to their remaining audience that is cost effective and profitable, i.e. lower budgets, better movies or TV shows and most importantly, realistic expectations.

Personally, I wish there was more animation.

[paperheart]

via Deadline: : Marvel Studios‘ sequel, The Marvels, has clocked around $6.5M in Thursday night previews we hear from sources. Disney will be reporting their official figure this morning and we’ll update you then.

If accurate, based on recent multiples for MCU of 6-7x preview night for opening weekend, could be looking at disastrous $40-45M. Would be lowest MCU ever ($55M IH) and lower than $61M opening day for CM. #fireFeige

Edited November 10, 2023 by paperheart