A Hulk 180/181 like debate involving the League of Assassins 1 1

[LDarkseid1]

So I was looking into buying a Strange Adventures #215 the other day which came out in 1968, and noticed someone detailed it as 1st appearance of the League of Assassins on Ebay, but it's not listed anywhere on the CGC label. I guess they appear in the book, but aren't actually recognized by the name, League of Assassins until Detective Comics #405 in 1970, which is when CGC acknowledges them as the true 1st app. I find myself debating which should be recognized though. Even if not by name, shouldn't they still at least be recognized as 1st appearing in the silver age from Strange Adventures #215, and not as bronze characters in Tec #405? Or is the fact they aren't named League of Assassins yet make it a non-factor?

[Readcomix]

Interesting…I don’t think the fact they are not named would be the factor. Look at Brave and the Bold 54 — widely accepted as first Teen Titans but without the name. Maybe it’s just that under the radar all these years?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:57 PM, Readcomix said:

Interesting…I don’t think the fact they are not named would be the factor. Look at Brave and the Bold 54 — widely accepted as first Teen Titans

Which is incorrect and based on somebody spreading that nonsense decades ago. It's obviously related to the Titans, but there is no team in that issue.

On 1/18/2022 at 5:57 PM, Readcomix said:

but without the name. Maybe it’s just that under the radar all these years?

I think the League is more complicated than that, but I'm not sure of all the details. Plus, I'm not sure how it's at all like Wolverine.

[Readcomix]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

Which is incorrect and based on somebody spreading that nonsense decades ago. It's obviously related to the Titans, but there is no team in that issue.

I think the League is more complicated than that, but I'm not sure of all the details. Plus, I'm not sure how it's at all like Wolverine.

Me neither re: Wolverine. And I don't necessarily disagree with you about the Titans; it just seems like a more similar situation -- same group of players involved, not named as a team. Closest situation I can think of to what OP describes in SA 215. 

[LDarkseid1]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

Which is incorrect and based on somebody spreading that nonsense decades ago. It's obviously related to the Titans, but there is no team in that issue.

I think the League is more complicated than that, but I'm not sure of all the details. Plus, I'm not sure how it's at all like Wolverine.

I think I might have to buy a raw SA 215 and see what the League of Assassins are like in the book.

[LDarkseid1]

On 1/18/2022 at 3:57 PM, Readcomix said:

Interesting…I don’t think the fact they are not named would be the factor. Look at Brave and the Bold 54 — widely accepted as first Teen Titans but without the name. Maybe it’s just that under the radar all these years?

Interesting point with BB54. And yeah who knows, maybe an under the radar key indeed, not given its due recognition. I doubt it would ever change so likely doesn't matter lol. However, there's definitely precedent for CGC changing a label. The only one I can think of is New Teen Titans #2, recognized as the first appearance of Deathstroke. I remember a time when that was all that was acknowledged on the label, and not the additional 1st cameo appearance of Trigon. Yet, that changed at one point and the Trigon notation was added. So who knows, maybe it could happen if I were to reach out and inquire about this.

Edited January 19, 2022 by LDarkseid1

[sfcityduck]

On 1/18/2022 at 5:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

Which is incorrect and based on somebody spreading that nonsense decades ago. It's obviously related to the Titans, but there is no team in that issue.

 

Not true (the team in BB 54 acts just like the team in Avengers 1).  Not what DC thinks.  Not what CGC and OPG thinks.  And this debate has gotten stale.  No need to hijack the thread to revive it.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Lazyboy]

On 1/20/2022 at 12:27 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not true (the team in BB 54 acts just like the team in Avengers 1).

As you know, there is a crucial difference between the two issues. Namely, the Avengers actually form (right at the end of their issue).

On 1/20/2022 at 12:27 PM, sfcityduck said:

No need to hijack the thread to revive it.

I wasn't the one who brought up the Titans. Nor did I hijack anything by mentioning them in one post.

[LDarkseid1]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:50 PM, PiggyTTV said:

The GCD agrees with you 

https://www.comics.org/issue/22311/

Well next time I send one to get graded I'll add that notation to see if it sticks.

[Zonker]

This came up a while ago in the Silver Age forum

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Here's what I think is going on.  The Society of Assassins with the Sensei as its apparent leader indeed first appeared in Strange Adventures 215, apparently written as well as illustrated by Neal Adams.  Then a couple of years later, Denny O'Neil introduces the League of Assassins in Detective 405, part of the foreshadowing of the introduction of Ras al Ghul, the "Head of the Demon," i.e. the leader of the League of Assassins.  Then, a couple of years after that, fan turned pro Mike Friedrich tied together the 2 organizations when he wrote Justice League of America #94.  Fans-turned-pro tend to make these connections where there were none before.  So JLA #94 ret-cons the 2 groups to be actually the same group, with Ras al Ghul as the Head, and the Sensei as kind of the organization's enforcer.  When Denny O'Neil returned to write about Ras al Ghul in Detective 485 & following, he embraced the ret-con, and for the first time included the Sensei into the mix.  Or maybe Denny's editor Paul Levitz (another fan-turned-pro) told him to do it.

 

[JTLarsen]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:27 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not true (the team in BB 54 acts just like the team in Avengers 1).  Not what DC thinks.  Not what CGC and OPG thinks.  And this debate has gotten stale.  No need to hijack the thread to revive it.

 

Robin says later that the Teen Titans formed later. Plus, I believe Avengers 1 mentions the phrase “Avengers.” And both OPG and CGC have come around on other mistakes. So, we’ll see!