Maus banned 1 1

[Terry JSA]

On 1/30/2022 at 12:55 PM, grapeape said:

To your point they just removed To Kill a Mockingbird in Missouri. It’s allowed in the library but not the classroom. The language is frank and real. A must read for understanding that time period. Deemed offensive.

Isn’t it ironic that kids have to do school shooter drills 5x a year but little Timmy’s feelings will be harmed if god forbid he picked up “To Kill A Mockingbird” when he’s 14 years old.

[DocGo]

On 1/30/2022 at 1:30 PM, namisgr said:

Eighth graders are age 13-14.  It's a perfectly appropriate age to introduce them to historical milestones of the past century, including atrocities of genocide and fascism over which World War II was fought.

 

I would think so too but the parents in this one school district don’t agree. It’s their decision for their own kids in a single classroom, which doesn’t fit the media narrative of a massive conspiracy to erase the Holocaust in the south.

[namisgr]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:56 AM, docgo said:

I would think so too but the parents in this one school district don’t agree. It’s their decision for their own kids in a single classroom, which doesn’t fit the media narrative of a massive conspiracy to erase the Holocaust in the south.

I haven't seen anything like that from media, and so would be interested in your links to support that idea.

What I have read is Spiegelman himself contextualizing the county ban of his work, with no regional consideration:

Spiegelman said he thinks the board's decision is "absurd," and part of a larger picture of often polarizing debates over things like critical race theory, oppression and slavery.

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by namisgr

[Rick2you2]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:56 AM, docgo said:

I would think so too but the parents in this one school district don’t agree. It’s their decision for their own kids in a single classroom, which doesn’t fit the media narrative of a massive conspiracy to erase the Holocaust in the south.

Which raises the question of why we permit parents to make those decisions, even if it is their own children. If parents decided that Hitler was a good guy, should they permitted to promote the “benefits” of Naziism in schools? If a school district wants the subject of WW 2 in its history class, then it should have the right to teach it as it sees fit, within State guidelines (which presumably would prevent something like teaching Naziism as a good thing). 

[Hockeyflow33]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:26 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Which raises the question of why we permit parents to make those decisions, even if it is their own children. If parents decided that Hitler was a good guy, should they permitted to promote the “benefits” of Naziism in schools? If a school district wants the subject of WW 2 in its history class, then it should have the right to teach it as it sees fit, within State guidelines (which presumably would prevent something like teaching Naziism as a good thing). 

Here's the quote from the school board, not really erasing history;

In a statement posted on its website Thursday, after numerous media articles detailed the controversy, the McMinn County Board of Education said the board voted to remove "the graphic novel Maus from McMinn County Schools because of its unnecessary use of profanity and nudity and its depiction of violence and suicide. Taken as a whole the board felt this work was simply too adult-oriented for use in our schools."

The school board added in their statement that they "do not diminish the value of Maus as an impactful and meaningful piece of literature, nor do we dispute the importance of teaching our children the historical and moral lessons and realities of the Holocaust."

"To the contrary we have asked our administrators to find other works that accomplish the same educational goals in a more age appropriate fashion," the board said. "The atrocities of the Holocaust were shameful beyond description, and we all have an obligation to ensure that younger generations learn of its horrors to ensure such an event is never repeated."

 

[Rick2you2]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:17 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

Here's the quote from the school board, not really erasing history;

In a statement posted on its website Thursday, after numerous media articles detailed the controversy, the McMinn County Board of Education said the board voted to remove "the graphic novel Maus from McMinn County Schools because of its unnecessary use of profanity and nudity and its depiction of violence and suicide. Taken as a whole the board felt this work was simply too adult-oriented for use in our schools."

The school board added in their statement that they "do not diminish the value of Maus as an impactful and meaningful piece of literature, nor do we dispute the importance of teaching our children the historical and moral lessons and realities of the Holocaust."

"To the contrary we have asked our administrators to find other works that accomplish the same educational goals in a more age appropriate fashion," the board said. "The atrocities of the Holocaust were shameful beyond description, and we all have an obligation to ensure that younger generations learn of its horrors to ensure such an event is never repeated."

 

So, in other words, we don't really want the kids to feel the horror of what happened, and thereby help prevent it in the future; we just want to mouth the words and let it blend together with other words like "in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue." 

[Hockeyflow33]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:27 AM, Rick2you2 said:

So, in other words, we don't really want the kids to feel the horror of what happened, and thereby help prevent it in the future; we just want to mouth the words and let it blend together with other words like "in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue." 

It's been awhile since I was 12/13 but I'm sure there are other age-appropriate books that can convey the same message to the kids. You don't need to expose middle school-aged children to the horrors of the worst atrocities ever committed to make a point. 

[gadzukes]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:31 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

It's been awhile since I was 12/13 but I'm sure there are other age-appropriate books that can convey the same message to the kids. You don't need to expose middle school-aged children to the horrors of the worst atrocities ever committed to make a point. 

From what I've seen, today's 12/13 year olds seem more like 16/17 year olds from one or two generations ago.  Having all the data of the internet on their handheld devises has aged them up a bit.

The article mentions "8th grade".  I wonder if the book was banned from the High School libraries too.

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:26 AM, Rick2you2 said:

Which raises the question of why we permit parents to make those decisions, even if it is their own children.

Because it's their property taxes that underline the majority of the endeavor to begin with?

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 9:50 AM, Taylor G said:

I didn’t find it in school nor was it assigned reading; I simply discovered it.

Excellent point and it's very good this 30 year old made it, probably not as intended though!

The curious will always seek, the uncurious will not and are rather unlikely -in my experience- to respond well to being forced to either. They'll just take the D (if grades are even being given anymore...) and still graduate with something less than honors.

There is no shortage of copies available anywhere/everywhere. Discovery is alive and well, for the curious that is.

It's not like this single Board (and group of parents) controls, like, everything  

Why...I could see a few intrepid folks setting up a table in front of the Post Office (ya know, where people typically try to collect enough signatures to get something on the next ballot...) or any other public space with lots of foot traffic...and just give 'em away.

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 9:29 AM, gadzukes said:

Having all the data of the internet on their handheld devises has aged them up a bit.

Too true; and there's this too https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Maus-A-Survivor-s-Tale

[gadzukes]

I now believe, because of all the press this story has gotten, that the Tennessee board who banned the book has inadvertently created a situation where tens of thousands of tweens and young adults (who maybe wouldn't have picked up the book) are actively searching out and reading this book.

It's a classic "reverse psychology" event...... "YOU CAN'T READ THIS!!!!" and then everyone goes out and reads it.

So..... um..... thank you Tennessee Board of Education.  Art Speigelman thanks you too.

[vodou]

[Ryan.]

Interesting that the school board has an issue with some blue language and a depiction of a nude anthropomorphized mouse yet doesn't mention the gas chambers, the bayonet stabbings, the hangings, the beatings, the psychological torment and the other actual horrors that the characters went through.

[Rick2you2]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:30 AM, vodou said:

Because it's their property taxes that underline the majority of the endeavor to begin with?

Not good enough for me. You want to control their education, send them to private school where you can teach them about witchcraft for all I care. But as beneficiaries of a public education, they should be required to learn things the parents might not like but are in the interests of the public for them to learn.

[Rick2you2]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:31 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

It's been awhile since I was 12/13 but I'm sure there are other age-appropriate books that can convey the same message to the kids. You don't need to expose middle school-aged children to the horrors of the worst atrocities ever committed to make a point. 

Actually, it’s a great way to do so. I still remember film clips from TV of what the GI’s found when they went into the concentration camps. Real horror is unforgettable.

[Rick2you2]

When I was a child, my father was given a book containing the great political cartooning from the beginning of the Republic to the swearing in of JFK (old book). The cartoons made history come alive. Instead of reading how the 19th century had the era of Big Business, you had cartoons of the giant trusts and Teddy Roosevelt swinging his axe at them, the coffin handbills of Andrew Jackson and his alleged duels, the uselessness of Benjamin Harrison as President (so small in the President’s chair he was virtually covered by Uncle Sam’s hat), and too many other things to mention. Cartoons have always driven home a message in the strongest terms; the fact that parents want the message  watered down speaks ill of their recognition of the subject. 

[vodou]

On 1/31/2022 at 12:33 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Not good enough for me. You want to control their education, send them to private school where you can teach them about witchcraft for all I care. But as beneficiaries of a public education, they should be required to learn things the parents might not like but are in the interests of the public for them to learn.

 

No taxation without representation is where the whole thing started...bro  

 

[jaybuck43]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:31 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

It's been awhile since I was 12/13 but I'm sure there are other age-appropriate books that can convey the same message to the kids. You don't need to expose middle school-aged children to the horrors of the worst atrocities ever committed to make a point. 

I am a bit curious, and this isn't meant to accuse you of antisemitism, but did you know any jews growing up?  You absolutely need to expose middle school aged children to the horrors of one of the worst atrocities ever committed, not just to make the point that it was bad (cause it was), but to start asking the more important questions like "How did we let that happen?" "How did people just go along with it?" and "What's preventing something like that from happening again?"

You think 12/13 is too young to be exposed to Maus?  which itself IS the  "watered down" version.  Let me tell you the bed time stories I was told at a significantly younger age.

My family was born in Lodz, Poland.  My grandfather was the youngest of 10.  His father, Chaim, owned a moderate sized factory in town.  He did well for himself, not a millionaire like Mr. Spiegelman,  but well enough to care for his kids, have a governess to help raise the kids etc.  When my grandfather was only 18 he was drafted with his brothers into the Polish Military to fight the Germans.  That uh didn't go well.  The Germans took control of West Poland (with East Poland seized by Russia).  My Great Grandfather's factory was stolen (sold to a Polish Gentile without any renumeration), my family thrown out of their home at gun point and forced into the Ghettos.  After a few years of starving, living on rations, and having to barely get by in a tiny one bedroom apartment for multiple people, the Germans and their Polish puppet government decided that my family had it WAY too good.  My great grandparents were pulled out of their new home and shot in the street for the crime of being "too old". My grandfather and his younger brother went and joined the Polish Resistance.  His older brothers weren't as lucky and were ratted out by neighbors and had them sent off to various "work camps".  You probably heard of one of them, Bergen-Belsen, this is where Anne Frank (along with my Uncle) died.  Two of my uncles were sent to a place you probably never heard of.  Majdanek, which was on the border of German Poland and Russian Poland.  There my uncles were forced to work until they died.  Below is a picture the Russian's took when they liberated the place.  Somewhere in that field of skulls and body parts, of 50,000 dead, are my uncles, cousins, and other relatives.  My grandfather himself was captured twice while he fought the Germans and escaped from Bergen-Belsen and then from Auschwitz-Birkenau.  In all, my great grandparents, four uncles and one aunt were murdered in the Shoah.  

So no, I'm don't care its a bit uncomfortable that kids have to be exposed to horrors of mankind, some of us didn't have choice.  My Grandfather didn't.  I'm not interested in "romanticizing" the Holocaust and making it more "tasteful".  Not gonna "Gone with the Wind" this.

[namisgr]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:31 AM, Hockeyflow33 said:

It's been awhile since I was 12/13 but I'm sure there are other age-appropriate books that can convey the same message to the kids. You don't need to expose middle school-aged children to the horrors of the worst atrocities ever committed to make a point. 

Once again, the curriculum in question was for eighth graders, who are 13 to 14 years old over the course of the school year.  That makes a graphic novel like Maus age appropriate.