Help me make sense of this IH181 3 3

[Petroman]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:57 PM, shadroch said:

It would be nice, after years of buying plods and glods at discounts for the market to decide they are worth more.

I can see this happening in the age of slabbed books.  Interior defects will effectively be hidden away forever so I can see the condition of the covers becoming the driving force behind the value of the book.

[Funnybooks]

 

On 5/23/2022 at 3:57 PM, shadroch said:

Color touch is usually meant to improve a books look. Extending your arguement, the manufacturer intended people to read the book so why deduct for creases, and so on.   The manufactuer didn't intend books to kept in mint shape so perhaps they should be punished.

The nice thing is if you want to pay full value for books with clipped coupons, no seller will try to stop you.  It would be nice, after years of buying plods and glods at discounts for the market to decide they are worth more.

Thereby causing them to be considered restored. Color touch that is deemed to have been done without the express idea of improving a books look is not considered restored.

Your argument is a bit thin regarding reading comics and associated creases...books are punished for not being in mint shape.

Coupons tell you to cut them out, fill them out and send them in ( there's a picture of a scissor along the dotted lines for arguments sake ). 3-D glasses expressly tell you to remove them, place them on your head, use them to see the 3D effect of the art.

The manufacturer does not tell you to read the comic you just purchased and abuse it along the way. What you do with it after you purchase the book is up to you. Tuck it away unread, burn it or scribble all over it

 

[grendelbo]

Going back to this restored IH181, I feel that it looks better than a 3.0. So is it fair to assume then it's apparent/restored grade is limited because of the clipped MVS? Could/should an otherwise legit NM copy of this book with a clipped MVS grade above a 3.0? Or would that be the maximum threshold?

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:26 PM, Banroy Clothing said:

A legit NM with the MVS cut out should get a Green label 

About 99.9% of books missing the MVS have the Qualified label. I should have been more specific - what if they were Universal? Is 3.0 the cap for such an incomplete book? Or is 1.5 as shown in the earlier two examples?

I'm just trying to understand that upper limit.

Edited May 23, 2022 by grendelbo

[shadroch]

On 5/23/2022 at 2:26 PM, Banroy Clothing said:

A legit NM with the MVS cut out should get a Green label 

I agree. 

[zzutak]

I've only been able to identify three (3) copies of IH #181 designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC with a Universal Grade higher than 2.5 GD+.  Specifically, this would be a single CGC 5.5 (Cert #0268632001) and two different CGC 3.5 (Cert #0999030003 and 2002195001).  Naturally, this doesn't mean that other such specimens don't exist -- only that I haven't found 'em.  Here are the receipts:

  

Please note that the "Label Text" for the first two books is entirely capitalized.  This implies that each of these books should have been encapsulated with a Qualified (Green) Label.  Yes, the more I dig, the more Quality Control whiffs I find.    So, based on the research presented above, I'd have to conclude that the highest Universal (Blue Label) Grade I've seen that appears to be legit is a 3.5 VG- (Cert #2002195001).

On a more general note, it appears there are far more improperly encapsulated books than most collectors realize.    Be careful out there, pilgrim. 

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:55 PM, zzutak said:

So, based on the research presented above, I'd have to conclude that the highest Universal (Blue Label) Grade I've seen that appears to be legit is a 3.5 VG- (Cert #2002195001).

Perfect, that's pretty much what I'm wondering. I'd like to see that book.

The Restored IH181 3.0 that's the subject here looks better than a 3.0. It seems to me then it's grade was capped by the missing MVS. 

3.0/3.5 is probably the best you could hope for if you're looking for an Universal label.

[zzutak]

On 5/23/2022 at 2:59 PM, grendelbo said:

3.0/3.5 is probably the best you could hope for if you're looking for an Universal label.

Possibly, Bo.  While the CGC 3.5 example I presented above is real, I always hate to draw general conclusions on the basis of a single data point -- especially when it comes to CGC.  The degree of consistency/reproducibility that was present in the early 2000s has definitely declined as CGC has grown.  It's always possible that my CGC 3.5 example, while real, is actually the result of a single grader being more lenient than CGC's proprietary grading standards either expressed or implied.

Here's my current count of unique IH #181 specimens designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC with a Universal Grade between 2.0 and 4.0: 2.0 GD = 7 copies; 2.5 GD+ = 2 copies; 3.0 GD/VG = 0 copies; 3.5 VG- = 1 copy (see previous post); 4.0 VG = 0 copies.  As I've said before, this doesn't mean that other such specimens don't exist -- only that I haven't found 'em.  The data at the 2.0 and 2.5 level are extensive enough to convince me that grades of GD+ or lower are consistent with CGC's grading standard.  However, the 3.5 data point may very well be an anomalous outlier.  Only time will tell.

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 5:44 PM, zzutak said:

Here's my current count of unique IH #181 specimens designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC with a Universal Grade between 2.0 and 4.0: 2.0 GD = 7 copies; 2.5 GD+ = 2 copies; 3.0 GD/VG = 0 copies; 3.5 VG- = 1 copy (see previous post); 4.0 VG = 0 copies.  As I've said before, this doesn't mean that other such specimens don't exist -- only that I haven't found 'em.  The data at the 2.0 and 2.5 level are extensive enough to convince me that grades of GD+ or lower are consistent with CGC's grading standard.  However, the 3.5 data point may very well be an anomalous outlier.  Only time will tell.

Yeah, small sample. I wonder if there's another graded book out there with more Qualified copies than IH181. You're just not going to find many copies that are incomplete and have the Universal label.

2.0-2.5 with the highest possible being 3.5 is what I'm taken note of. I appreciate the investigation into this.

I wonder if there's any Qualified copies below a 3.5. I found a 4.0 Qualified missing the MVS. I found a 3.5 that's Qualified and missing page 10. But nothing lower. If there's not anything lower that's a bit telling about the threshold.

[zzutak]

On 5/23/2022 at 4:59 PM, grendelbo said:

I wonder if there [are] any Qualified copies below a 3.5

Hopefully not!  Incomplete books that are otherwise 3.5 VG- or lower should receive a Universal (Blue Label) Grade.  Incomplete books that are otherwise 4.5 VG+ and higher are eligible to receive a Qualified (Green Label) Grade.  Incomplete books that are otherwise 4.0 VG can go either way, depending on the grader's discretion.  At least this was CGC's policy as of August 11, 2018, as shared by one of CGC's most helpful graders, BradleyX2. 

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:14 PM, zzutak said:

Hopefully not!  Incomplete books that are otherwise 3.5 VG- or lower should receive a Universal (Blue Label) Grade.  Incomplete books that are otherwise 4.5 VG+ and higher are eligible to receive a Qualified (Green Label) Grade.  Incomplete books that are otherwise 4.0 VG can go either way, depending on the grader's discretion.  At least this was CGC's policy as of August 11, 2018, as shared by one of CGC's most helpful graders, BradleyX2. 

That's super-useful to know (be reminded of) and in line with slabs I see. Thanks as always.

[zzutak]

And thank you for launching a very interesting thread!   

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:24 PM, zzutak said:

And thank you for launching a very interesting thread!   

Turned out to be. I just stumbled upon that IH181 by accident and my mind went into a frenzy and I couldn't find the answers.  

[Lightning55]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:33 PM, grendelbo said:

Turned out to be. I just stumbled upon that IH181 by accident and my mind went into a frenzy and I couldn't find the answers.  

Agree....this was/is an interesting thread.  If it is not a book you were interested in purchasing, do you mind telling us where you saw it?  Unless it was mentioned earlier and I missed it....

[grendelbo]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:04 PM, Lightning55 said:

Agree....this was/is an interesting thread.  If it is not a book you were interested in purchasing, do you mind telling us where you saw it?  Unless it was mentioned earlier and I missed it....

https://www.comicstor.shop/Incredible_Hulk_181_CGC_30_Restored_C1_Missing_MVS_WHITE_PAGES_1st_WOLVERINE/pAOu6L_21388316.aspx

Yeah I have a copy. Don't need a second.

I can't remember what I was searching last night but it wasn't this book. I was probably researching Qualified CGC. Came across the image. Caught my attention.

[Lightning55]

Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.

[shadroch]

Something seems off with those prices.

[grendelbo]

On 5/24/2022 at 12:02 AM, shadroch said:

Something seems off with those prices.

I hadn't looked before but yeah.

IH 180, 181 & 182 all CGC for £3900.

[Mucheee1]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:40 AM, zzutak said:

So much for my earlier post.  A bit of digging revealed these examples.  So I have now "officially" seen examples of books designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC with grades higher than 2.5 GD+ -- indeed, one with a grade as high as 6.0 FN.    Frankly, I'm a bit shocked to learn that INCOMPLETE specimens can grade this high. 

Take a look at this head scratcher (I assume CGC used the wrong label on this one). 

[The Lions Den]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:50 PM, Mucheee1 said:

Take a look at this head scratcher (I assume CGC used the wrong label on this one). 

Looks like it should have been a green label...