Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1956

Stan did FOUR stories for Western Outlaws #17 (John Severin cover).

Story ONE with Joe Maneely

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story TWO with Dick Ayers

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Story THREE with Reed Crandall

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story FOUR with Gene Colan

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

You are really trying too hard and doing a disservice to the facts as a result. For example, EC was not targeted for destruction by other publishers. The demise of PCH was largely due to forces outside of the publishing side of the business. The publishers, including EC, fought hard against those forces both through direct responses to attacks such as Stan’s anti-Wertham editorials and a series of efforts at moderation and self-regulation. Gaines had a disastrous appearance before Congress and did not have the stomach to self-moderate. So he basically folded the tent out of principle. It did not help that EC never had effective kid, teen, romance or superhero titles to fall back on. But he did have Mad, and he went all in on that even after the forces of censorship weakened ceding EC’s former ground to other publishers.
 

Feldstein wrote some great stories but it is fair to say he was no Kurtzman when it came to writing. Feldstein drowned his stories in words creating panels where the art had little space for expression. His style stands in stark contrast to Stan’s which used far fewer words. The notion that Feldstein could have ushered in the brilliance that was 60s Marvel is unsupportable.

I get you hate Stan and love Kirby, but your black and white view has badly warped your perception of comic history. 
 

You lost me in your first two posts. Yellow Claw is neither a comic that is core to the EC style that many of us love (EC abandoned its feeble attempts at superhero’s and spies prior to its high period) nor a superhero revival (what put Stan and Jack on the map in the 60s).

The mythology you are pushing is deep on zeal but not convincing to me.

Edited July 12, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1956

Stan did FOUR stories for Quick Trigger Western #15 (Joe Maneely cover).

Story ONE with Joe Maneely

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story TWO with Dick Ayers

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Story THREE with Angelo Torres

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Story FOUR with Reed Crandall

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

In my world that is an ugly page with the middle tier an example of what a comic page should not look like. Feldstein drowned out artists. It took the courage and vision of Krigstein to create a true masterpiece of artistic expression at EC with Feldstein as the writer (Kurtzman was a genius artist-writer).

Edited July 12, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:52 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

In July, Showcase #4 featured DC making its first attempt to bring in NEW Superheroes for the THEN Modern Age, with a revamped Flash. You can see the difference in the way DC introduces new concepts vs the way Atlas/Marvel does it! DC is clean, and wholesome, while Atlas still has that more stylized, wise guy approach. It took Felstein to bring that back.... Showcase #4 would get all the attention (even though it wasn't even the biggest hit they'd get in 1956...), but make no mistake - for Atlas/Marvel, the book that kick starts things is Yellow Claw #1-4.

But this book is very important too!

 

Are you seriously equating Yellow Claw to Showase 4? Unbelievable. 

Yellow Claw kickstarted nothing relating to superhero’s. Atlas you will recall had already failed at a mid-50s superhero revival, and so had S&K. Contrary to what many think, superhero’s were a constant presence throughout the 50s and new ones were introduced throughout. The import of Showcase 4 is it set in motion a DC revival of mostly old characters (Martian Manhunter was new) which led to the JLA - which prompted Goodman to direct Stan to jump on the trend -which he did with FF. Marvel was late to the revivals but the formula they came up with won the day ultimately. Yellow Claw presaged nothing that went into that formula.

Yellow Claw was just a retread of a non-superhero concept that first entered comics in the 1930s.

Edited July 12, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

You are really trying too hard and doing a disservice to the facts as a result. For example, EC was not targeted for destruction by other publishers. The demise of PCH was largely due to forces outside of the publishing side of the business. The publishers, including EC, fought hard against those forces both through direct responses to attacks such as Stan’s anti-Wertham editorials and a series of efforts at moderation and self-regulation. Gaines had a disastrous appearance before Congress and did not have the stomach to self-moderate. So he basically folded the tent out of principle. 
 

You are sorely misinformed. But considering you made the statement 'The legend of Kirby is way overblown when it comes to the  GA. ' it shouldn't surprise me. 

To say Gaines 'folded the tent out of principle', shows a complete lack of understanding of what happened. The government imposed ZERO censorship over the industry. The PUBLISHERS created the Code and worded it SPECIFICALLY aimed at EC Comics. 'No Comic Book shall use the words 'horror' or 'terror' in the title' - restrictions on the use of the word CRIME in the title. It was aimed at EC Comics. Put together by the Publishers of Atlas, Archie and DC Comics. They worked it to put Gaines out of business, because he outsold them. They saw their opportunity, they took it. 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Feldstein wrote some great stories but it is fair to say he was no Kurtzman when it came to writing.

Equally ridiculous statement. I'm a huge Kurtzman fan, but Feldstein wrote some of the BEST stories in EC's history, the MOST stories in EC's history and probably the most FAMOUS story in EC's history ('Judgement Day' - taking a stand on racism over a decade earlier than Stan Lee.). And as writer/editor of Mad Magazine, he made it BY FAR, the biggest selling comic related publication of his era. 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Feldstein drowned his stories in words creating panels where the art had little space for expression. His style stands in stark contrast to Stan’s which used far fewer words.

Not sure which reality you come from, but Stan's well known over-pontification is in 'stark contrast' to whatever point you're trying to make. In no way did Stan use 'far fewer words'. 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

The notion that Feldstein could have ushered in the brilliance that was 60s Marvel is unsupportable.

Not at all. He ushered in the brilliance of 50's EC and the brilliance of Mad Magazine for almost THREE DECADES. The guy was an actual WRITER, and the most successful (in terms of sales) EDITOR in the history of comics. It's not unsupportable at all. 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

I get you hate Stan and love Kirby, but you black and white view has badly warped your perception of comic history. 

I don't hate Stan Lee. The truth is in the work though. 

Stan was a hack as a writer, but a quality editor for mainstream comics. He didn't even write stories or scripts for the last 15 years in the comic business. He had a gimmick for how he dialogued that no one much paid attention to for most of his career. Until he got a storytelling artist with an unlimited imagination that he latched onto and used to make himself what his ultimate goal always was; to be a celebrity. 

Kirby was a creative giant for his entire career. He was successful in every stage of his career.

If not for Jack Kirby, Stan Lee would've been just another Charlton Comics, but out of business much sooner. 

On 7/12/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

You lost me in your first two posts. Yellow Claw is neither a comic that is core to the EC style that many of us love (EC abandoned its feeble attempts at superhero’s and spies prior to its high period) nor a superhero revival (what put Stan and Jack on the map in the 60s).

the mythology you are pushing is deep on zeal but not convincing to me.

Your love of Stan Lee has 'warped your perception of comic history'. 

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/11/2022 at 11:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

EC had, still didn’t transfer to Atlas… or to Lee.

While the artistic talent was transferred, Lee was, unlike New Trend EC, encumbered by the Comics Code, and the stories were neutered by that. I’ve read, or, tried to read, some of their Atlas stories, and they are really boring. The story / art synergy had vanished.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:58 PM, sfcityduck said:

Feldstein wrote some great stories but it is fair to say he was no Kurtzman when it came to writing. Feldstein drowned his stories in words creating panels where the art had little space for expression. His style stands in stark contrast to Stan’s which used far fewer words. The notion that Feldstein could have ushered in the brilliance that was 60s Marvel is unsupportable.

Good point.

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:43 PM, Prince Namor said:

I'm a huge Kurtzman fan, but Feldstein wrote some of the BEST stories in EC's history

He may have been wordy, but he’s one of my all-time favourite comic writers. Along with Kurtzman. Short but brilliant stories.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

Are you seriously equating Yellow Claw to Showase 4? Unbelievable. 

Yes. 

Marvel didn't create a world of squeaky clean superheroes in 1961. They created, what DC writers and editors called 'ugly' superheroes. It has more in common with Yellow Claw than it does Flash.

On 7/12/2022 at 8:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

Yellow Claw kickstarted nothing relating to superhero’s. Atlas you will recall had already failed at a mid-50s superhero revival, and so had S&K. Contrary to what many think, superhero’s were a constant presence throughout the 50s and new ones were introduced throughout. The import of Showcase 4 is it set in motion a DC revival of mostly old characters (Martian Manhunter was new) which led to the JLA -

You're just repeating what you've been told by people who want to manipulate history.

If Flash was so successful, why did the Challengers of the Unknown have FOUR appearances in Showcase, before the Flash got its third? Flash didn't get his own title until December 1958, the Challengers of the Unknown got theirs almost a YEAR earlier (February of 1958).

In a time when newsstand sales determined EVERYTHING, it's very apparent that Challengers of the Unknown (the precursor to the FF), was the better seller. It's place in history, has been muted by Stan Lee as well as DC Comics. Kirby had yet another hit. 

On 7/12/2022 at 8:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

which prompted Goodman to direct Stan to jump on the trend -which he did with FF.

Fairy tale. Goodman never prompted anything. The whole golf game BS story that Stan invented has been disputed.

Justice League numbers weren't spectacular anyway. It's first Average Paid Circulation numbers placed it at #13, but that's still 9th place just at DC Comics. It sold  almost 150,000 less copies than the next highest DC book (Adventure Comics). (Flash was even farther down - 3 notches - another 30,000 less copies sold per month). It would be just as likely that Liebowitz would be bragging about sales of Blackhawk, if any such fantasy meeting had occurred. 

Superman was selling 820,000 copies per month (#2 to Uncle Scrooge). If Marvel was trying to copy the success of DC, THAT would've been the route to go. Stan's full of BS. And the #3, 4 and 5 comic? Superman FAMILY books - Superboy, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane. 

FF was inspired by Kirby's own Challengers of the Unknown that he left at DC. Kirby was the one always pushing for superheroes.

But Stan, who made these stories up after Kirby left Marvel, and Goodman sold the company, had to steer it toward making HIMSELF look like the creator. That's all it is. 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 8:47 AM, Ken Aldred said:

While the artistic talent was transferred, Lee was, unlike New Trend EC, encumbered by the Comics Code, and the stories were neutered by that. I’ve read, or, tried to read, some of their Atlas stories, and they are really boring. The story / art synergy had vanished.

Absolutely. Or we could look at it as... the writing was just boring. The stories were just boring. The talent wasn't there to transcend it. 

Feldstein showed in that Yellow Claw #1 that you could still write edgy, entertaining stories despite the code. And then Kirby with issue #2,3 and 4 reemphasized it by introducing concepts and technology, with action stories that again showed you could be entertaining despite the code. 

This is the whole essence of the idea.

Kirby was a force pre-Code and throughout. His talent was unflappable to any code. 

EC was forced out, and what was left was bland, uninspired hack material, with great artists who could do very little with it.

That's why some of the great artists of that period left comics and went to Mad - JACK DAVIS, Wally Wood, Al Feldstein, Harvey Kurtzman... think of what the comic book world lost by that....

What Kirby would do during this period of time is an under reported period of comic book history. ON HIS OWN, he would show just how much he had to do with saving comics from bland, boring, sanitized garbage that people like Stan Lee were publishing.

And Stan would eventually go and take the credit for it. 

The more you dig, the more you see the truth.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 5:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

To say Gaines 'folded the tent out of principle', shows a complete lack of understanding of what happened. The government imposed ZERO censorship over the industry. The PUBLISHERS created the Code and worded it SPECIFICALLY aimed at EC Comics. 'No Comic Book shall use the words 'horror' or 'terror' in the title' - restrictions on the use of the word CRIME in the title. It was aimed at EC Comics. Put together by the Publishers of Atlas, Archie and DC Comics. They worked it to put Gaines out of business, because he outsold them. They saw their opportunity, they took it. 

Equally ridiculous statement. I'm a huge Kurtzman fan, but Feldstein wrote some of the BEST stories in EC's history, the MOST stories in EC's history and probably the most FAMOUS story in EC's history ('Judgement Day'

First, the most famous EC story, the most influential on artists, the one that is museum worthy is “Master Race” thanks solely to Krigstein.  I would rate  several Kurtzman stories higher on the scale than “Judgment Day” also.

Second, your summation of the history of comic censorship and self- censorship is distorted. The forces of censorship started swirling around comics no later than 1947, BEFORE Entrrtaining Comics as we view it was even up and running, The first publisher self censorship group, the precursor to the CCA, was formed in 1947 by a group that included Gaines and Dell (which pulled out rather than agree to self-censorship in 1948) and others, but not Goodman or DC or MLJ.

ACMP stamp on EC upper right corner:

it was formed in response to both private activism against comics (articles etc) AND GOVERNMENT ACTION ON THE CITY AND COUNTY LEVEL to ban comics. Later on, after SOTI was published in 1954 and Gaines fell on his face in the US Senate hearings multiple states had censorship laws on the road to adoption. The CCA was then a last ditch effort to stave off govt. censorship. 

You  have the basic facts wrong: you talk like a tribal sports fan arguing a refs call more concerned with your team’s success than the truth.  All these people are dead. There are no teams here. We should aim for the truth.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:10 AM, Prince Namor said:

Yes. 

Marvel didn't create a world of squeaky clean superheroes in 1961. They created, what DC writers and editors called 'ugly' superheroes. It has more in common with Yellow Claw than it does Flash.

 

If Flash was so successful, why did the Challengers of the Unknown have FOUR appearances in Showcase, before the Flash got its third? Flash didn't get his own title until December 1958, the Challengers of the Unknown got theirs almost a YEAR earlier (February of 1958).

 

 

Yellow Claw and Challengers were not superhero books.  Flash was a revival and updating of GA hero. So was FF, both explicitly (Human Torch and shortly Subby - two of the big 3) and derivatively (Mr, Fantastic, Invisible Girl). 

As I said above, superheros were always part of the 50s mix with strong titles continuing throughout the 50s like Superman (Fawcett was sued out of business it did not fail at superhero’s), with new heroes being tried out and revived, including at Marvel WITHOUT KIRBY for several years.

What changed by 1961 was DC and other publishers had reached the point where superhero revivals were an indisputably successful trend. That is what got trend follower Goodman’s attention. Kirby did not have the juice in 1961 to get a new superhero title at Marvel greenlit. Goodman only made safe moves based on trend following.

Challengers was not part of the superhero trend. It was more an adventure/sf/monster book. Did ideas from Challengers make their way into FF? Yes. But not the important ones which made Marvels 60s efforts succeed.

Edited July 12, 2022 by sfcityduck

[shadroch]

You'd almost get the idea the OP has some sort of agenda.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:23 AM, Prince Namor said:

Absolutely. Or we could look at it as... the writing was just boring. The stories were just boring. The talent wasn't there to transcend it. 

….

EC was forced out, and what was left was bland, uninspired hack material, with great artists who could do very little with it.

Anyone who has read the Atlas archives can attest that there a lot of great stories in the pre-Kirby and Ditko monster era by great artists like Everett, Krigstein, etc. The blanket write-off of all things not Kirby is, again, the kind of tribalism we see in sports and politics but which has no place in serious comic history.

[shadroch]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:04 AM, sfcityduck said:

Anyone who has read the Atlas archives can attest that there a lot of great stories in the pre-Kirby and Ditko monster era by great artists like Everett, Krigstein, etc. The blanket write-off of all things not Kirby is, again, the kind of tribalism we see in sports and politics but which has no place in serious comic history.

Fair and balanced. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:31 AM, sfcityduck said:

First, the most famous EC story, the most influential on artists, the one that is museum worthy is “Master Race” thanks solely to Krigstein.  I would rate  several Kurtzman stories higher on the scale than “Judgment Day” also.

Judgement Day is literally the only story that's highlighted on the wikipedia page, for its content, and for its significance in the history of comics.

And Master Race is written by Al Feldstein. 

On 7/12/2022 at 9:31 AM, sfcityduck said:

Second, your summation of the history of comic censorship and self- censorship is distorted. The forces of censorship started swirling around comics no later than 1947, BEFORE Entrrtaining Comics as we view it was even up and running, The first publisher self censorship group, the precursor to the CCA, was formed in 1947 by a group that included Gaines and Dell (which pulled out rather than agree to self-censorship in 1948) and others, but not Goodman or DC or MLJ.

ACMP stamp on EC upper right corner:

 

it was formed in response to both private activism against comics (articles etc) AND GOVERNMENT ACTION ON THE CITY AND COUNTY LEVEL to ban comics. Later on, after SOTI was published in 1954 and Gaines fell on his face in the US Senate hearings multiple states had censorship laws on the road to adoption. The CCA was then a last ditch effort to stave off govt. censorship. 

You  have the basic facts wrong: you talk like a tribal sports fan arguing a refs call more concerned with your team’s success than the truth.  All these people are dead. There are no teams here. We should aim for the truth.

Yeah I read the 'Ten Cent Plague' as well. Doesn't change anything.

https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Cent-Plague-Comic-Book-Changed-America-ebook/dp/B00139XT6Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=284F260O5QHBY&keywords=ten+cent+plague&qid=1657634628&sprefix=ten+cent+plague%2Caps%2C649&sr=8-1

The Government did NOTHING. Despite the activism, comic book sales were strong. EC was going strong.

Three Publishers decided to end EC Comics reign. 

Plain and simple as that. They certainly didn't INCLUDE them in the decision making. 

The CCA was NOT a last ditch effort to stave off govt. censorship. The activism still came after comic books despite the CCA. BUT: The government ended up being on the side of comic books:

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/354/katzev-v-county-of-los-angeles-cal

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/381/butler-v-michigan

and even as far back as 1948 courts were upholding publishers rights:

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/424/winters-v-new-york

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

And Master Race is written by Al Feldstein. 

 

 

But what made that story great was Krigstein’s rebellion against the Feldstein style. That story has been cited by many as the greatest ever drawn, including Pulitzer winner Art Spiegelman who wrote his dissertation on it. Miller owes his career to that story as do other artists from the 60s on. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:04 AM, sfcityduck said:

Anyone who has read the Atlas archives can attest that there a lot of great stories in the pre-Kirby and Ditko monster era by great artists like Everett, Krigstein, etc. The blanket write-off of all things not Kirby is, again, the kind of tribalism we see in sports and politics but which has no place in serious comic history.

Yeah I was responding to someone who HAD read the Atlas archives and found the CCA stories boring. The pre-Code stuff he may have seen differently, but he was talking about the CCA Atlas work.

I'm sure there is decent stuff in it, and you're more than welcome to post some examples (you won't though), but most of what I've read just isn't special. Atlas seemed to have an assembly line mentality of how they put out comics. It shows. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Ten-Cent-Plague-Comic-Book-Changed-America-ebook/dp/B00139XT6Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=284F260O5QHBY&keywords=ten+cent+plague&qid=1657634628&sprefix=ten+cent+plague%2Caps%2C649&sr=8-1

The Government did NOTHING. Despite the activism, comic book sales were strong. EC was going strong.

Three Publishers decided to end EC Comics reign. 

Plain and simple as that. They certainly didn't INCLUDE them in the decision making. 

The CCA was NOT a last ditch effort to stave off govt. censorship. The activism still came after comic books despite the CCA. BUT: The government ended up being on the side of comic books:

https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/354/katzev-v-county-of-los-angeles-cal

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/381/butler-v-michigan

and even as far back as 1948 courts were upholding publishers rights:

https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/424/winters-v-new-york

 

 

The fact the Courts had to strike down censorship laws establishes the legislature, counties and city governments were passing censorship laws. The threats chilled publishers into forming the CCA. 
 

Gaines was all over the map on why EC got out of comics. Personally I think he just lost the will to fight so he tried to escape the format which didn’t work.