Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1956) Separating the Men from the Boys PART TWO 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:23 AM, sfcityduck said:

But what made that story great was Krigstein’s rebellion against the Feldstein style. That story has been cited by many as the greatest ever drawn, including Pulitzer winner Art Spiegelman who wrote his dissertation on it. Miller owes his career to that story as do other artists from the 60s on. 

Oh I agree. Still written by Al Feldstein. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:30 AM, sfcityduck said:

The fact the Courts had to strike down censorship laws establishes the legislature, counties and city governments were passing censorship laws. The threats chilled publishers into forming the CCA. 
 

Gaines was all over the map on why EC got out of comics. Personally I think he just lost the will to fight so he tried to escape the format which didn’t work. 

OR: He couldn't specifically publish his best selling comics because three publishers made a Code specifically aimed at those titles. 

[shadroch]

Follow the money. 

Congress announces it has started an investigation into organized crime.

Govenrnment investigators start looking into comics and the whole magazine distribution business, looking for alleged mob ties.

Within a short time, more than half of the distributors shut down, leaving the Feds with no place to turn. Dozens of comic and magazine publishers go out of business, not because of government pressure on themselves, but as a result of the mob-run distribution services disappearing.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:29 AM, Prince Namor said:

Yeah I was responding to someone who HAD read the Atlas archives and found the CCA stories boring. The pre-Code stuff he may have seen differently, but he was talking about the CCA Atlas work.

I'm sure there is decent stuff in it, and you're more than welcome to post some examples (you won't though), but most of what I've read just isn't special. Atlas seemed to have an assembly line mentality of how they put out comics. It shows. 

On this we agree: Atlas did have an assembly line mentality. Pretty much all publishers did - S&K definitely included. That' was the whole point of a shop. What varied was the quality of the assembly line. And Atlas certainly had its highpoints. Read the Archives yourself and you'll find them.  

Stan Lee was, by his own admission, burned out on comics in the 1950s. No one has ever argued that Stan's 50s output is his creative peak (nor do I think anyone's ever argued that for Kirby or Ditko).  Stan felt reinvigorated as a result of the Marvel shift into superheroes. I don't doubt that the new subject matter and the success was a big part of that as was his collaborators. Certainly the Marvel work early to mid-60s work product by Lee, Kirby and Ditko was the peak of their career. Kirby's art in the early 60s is entirely different than the rushed "rubber band" style he used in the GA back when his main selling point was volume. Ditko's Spiderman work puts his prior and later work to shame. 

What you fail to see is that in an creative endeavor, all of the parts have to work together to achieve greatness. It's the mix that matters. And the early to mid-60s Marvel mix did just that. Your attempt to ascribe that success to just Kirby or just Ditko ignores that just Kirby or just Ditko never achieved those heights alone, certainly not on Challengers or Yellow Claw.  There's a reason for that. Ponder it.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:40 AM, Prince Namor said:

Oh I agree. Still written by Al Feldstein. 

Your point being?  As I admitted above, Feldstein wrote some great stories. But he choked the artists. Krigsten found a way to avoid being strangled. 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:42 AM, Prince Namor said:

OR: He couldn't specifically publish his best selling comics because three publishers made a Code specifically aimed at those titles. 

He could have changed the titles. Horror titles did continue under the CCA. He effectively did when he created Impact and Incredible Science Fiction. Gaines has been quoted as saying that it was his choice to escape the format and go into magazines. He blames other unnamed publishers for his low magainze sales by claiming they told distributors not to market the books. Apparently, that did not include Mad. When Creepy, Eerie, etc. revived the EC model in magazine format, they sold and Gaines elected not to revive EC. His choice. He had given up. I don't blame him as he was making a lot off of Mad then. But I don't think there is any support for Gaines' conspiracy theory other than his unevidenced assertions about the distributors. Shadroch makes a good point on that. I get that you want to blame the demise of EC on Stan Lee also, but that is many bridges too far.

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, sfcityduck said:

 Stan Lee was, by his own admission, burned out on comics in the 1950s. No one has ever argued that Stan's 50s output is his creative peak (nor do I think anyone's ever argued that for Kirby or Ditko).  Stan felt reinvigorated as a result of the Marvel shift into superheroes. I don't doubt that the new subject matter and the success was a big part of that as was his collaborators. Certainly the Marvel work early to mid-60s work product by Lee, Kirby and Ditko was the peak of their career.

Certainly Lee's.

Kirby though had multiple million selling comics before the Silver Age, and with Simon the first creative team to be advertised on the cover of a comic. Joe Simon said they were both making $1000 a week in the early 50's. 

On 7/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, sfcityduck said:

Kirby's art in the early 60s is entirely different than the rushed "rubber band" style he used in the GA back when his main selling point was volume.

Kirby's monthly output in every part of his career, nowhere reached the 'volume' it did in the early to mid-60's.

On 7/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, sfcityduck said:

Ditko's Spiderman work puts his prior and later work to shame. 

There's plenty who would disagree. 

On 7/12/2022 at 10:47 AM, sfcityduck said:

What you fail to see is that in an creative endeavor, all of the parts have to work together to achieve greatness. It's the mix that matters. And the early to mid-60s Marvel mix did just that. Your attempt to ascribe that success to just Kirby or just Ditko ignores that just Kirby or just Ditko never achieved those heights alone, certainly not on Challengers or Yellow Claw.  There's a reason for that. Ponder it.

I'm not questioning Stan Lee's impact on the Silver Age. I'm questioning his creative input. 

Which based upon his work going into the Silver Age vs what Kirby and Ditko were doing shows me exactly who the 'creators' were.

Did Stan play a huge part in making it what it was?

Of course.

Without him it wouldn't have been the same.

But without Kirby and Ditko, it wouldn't have happened at all.

Stan testified in a court of law that all of the ideas were HIS OWN. HE created it all. 

Complete nonsense. 

 

And the idea that Kirby never 'achieved those heights on his own' is absurd.

If the Comics Industry ended in 1960, Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame.

Stan would not.

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Yellow Claw #2 (John Severin cover)  -  Jack Kirby pulls out all the stops as he introduces psychic 'mutants' who can alter reality, a giant robot created as an asian god, and more. His reputation precedes him, as a freelancer to be given full reign to take over this book by himself... 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Yellow Claw #2 - Part 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Yellow Claw #2 - Part 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Yellow Claw #2 - Part 4

[shadroch]

Without Stan, there would be no Comic Hall of Fame. Lee was and is the face that saved comics. Stan was the man who made comics cool.  Some people just don't get it.  No one cares what Stan was or wasn't doing in the 1950s. 

[bc]

Always liked this panel from the first story in YC2 (c'mon it has a wide-eyed dog with wings).

After seeing the Dr. Strange movie, appreciate it even more with the weird bendy city imagery.

-bc

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/12/2022 at 1:27 PM, bc said:

Always liked this panel from the first story in YC2 (c'mon it has a wide-eyed dog with wings).

After seeing the Dr. Strange movie, appreciate it even more with the weird bendy city imagery.

-bc

That is a sick panel. The Doctor Strange comment fits 100%, too.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Astonishing #56 (Joe Maneely cover) - It was a successful return to Atlas, as Kirby here does some more fine work... Marvel didn't reprint this story until 2017, in the Monsters Omnibus.  

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Strange Tales of the Unusual #7 (Carl Burgos cover) - Yep, Kirby in fine form... another story that Marvel didn't reprint until 2017, in the Monsters Omnibus.  

[sfcityduck]

On 7/12/2022 at 9:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

And the idea that Kirby never 'achieved those heights on his own' is absurd.

If the Comics Industry ended in 1960, Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame.

 

 

Maybe he makes the HoF because lots of guys make the HoF, but he's not even close to Mount Rushmore based on his GA. Before Kirby became Joe Simon's junior partner he did nothing notable in the GA.

Afterwards, he had a good run on 10 issues of Captain America - a character designed and envisioned by Joe Simon, but which was a blatant Shield rip-off. Bucky was Timely's second blatant Robin (or was it of Shield's kid partner, I forget) rip-off at Timely, after Toro. Joe liked Kirby's art and his work rate, which was prodigious on CA. Personally, I prefer Schomburg's CA covers to Kirby's, but that's a matter of taste. It was a good 10 issue run. Other than that, what did Kirby do for Timely? The forgettable Red Raven and Vision?  The Young Allies was probably the most next notable, S&K's first "kid gang" that unfortunately included the racist portrayal of the watermelon loving Whitewash Jones. Ironically, the idea of CA having a kid gang of helper's originated in a (non-racist) text story written by Stan Lee for CA 4 - the kid gang was called the Sentinels of Liberty and tied into the club used for promoting CA Comics. S&K would milk the kid gang concept at D.C. for the Boy Commandos and Newsboy Legion after their Timely tenure ended with CA 10.

Over at DC, other than the kid gang retreads, S&K didn't do anything of lasting impact. A redesign of Sandman and Manhunter. Kirby got drafted and they didn't do much until 1946 when they shifted to Harvey and created the forgettable Stuntman and, you guessed it, another kid gang comic Boy's Ranch. They knew how to milk a theme.

S&K did some romance (not the first time it was in comics, but they did create the first on-going romance title to capitalize on a trend Simon saw in magazines and pulps and felt was a big commercial opportunity - he was right, but Kirby was not Matt Baker), crime and other genre work. But I can't think of anything they did that really stands out as seminal. Fighting American was a confused creation that started our serious and became a parody, apparently inspired because Atlas was doing CA (and other Timely heroes) without them.

Without Simon, my favorite Kirby of the 50s was Sky Masters but that had the benefit of Wally Wood's involvement. It was a powerful art combination and the scripting by and Dave Wood was also top-notch (they did Challengers with Kirby at DC). After that, Kirby worked on Atlas monster books, which I agree are generally pretty boring (unlike the earlier pre-Kirby and Ditko Atlas books).

Kirby's best days were clearly ahead of him starting with 1961. Do you really disagree and think his GA and 50s works puts him head and shoulders above others? I don't. 

I think Kirby's 1930s-1950s works adds a polish to the reputation he rightly earned working at Marvel in the 60s, but it is a pale shadow of his 1960s work. Kirby is part of a pack in the GA and 50s. In the early to mid-60s, he's the top of the heap. It's easy to look too fondly at his GA work if you are smitten with his 60s work, but that doesn't help your case.

I can think of many creators I'd rate above Kirby in the GA (not Stan Lee). For example, to pick a strong parallel, I'd put Bill Everett above Kirby in the GA for his work and creations at Centaur, Timely, Atlas and other publishers and consistently high quality work on genre comics in the 50s.  His art style was always appealing, but got better and better as his career progressed, as Kirby's did, but unlike Kirby, Everett peaked in the 50s reaching heights that few artists achieved. Kirby's art from that time period is a rung or two below Everett in my eyes, especially covers.

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

Kirby also did:

Young Love #73 - Two stories, plus the cover with Joe Simon inks

Young Romance #85 - all 4 stories plus the cover

Hi-School Romance #56 - cover and title page

First Love Illustrated #69 - cover

First Romance Magazine #42 - cover

True Bride-To-Be Romances #20 (Simon Inks) - cover

[Prince Namor]

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Maybe he makes the HoF because lots of guys make the HoF, but he's not even close to Mount Rushmore based on his GA. Before Kirby became Joe Simon's junior partner he did nothing notable in the GA.

Before? Comics were young. Simon & Kirby became 50/50 partners in 1941. Not sure what you're on about with this junior partner stuff.

What was it Simon did without Kirby?

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Afterwards, he had a good run on 10 issues of Captain America - a character designed and envisioned by Joe Simon, but which was a blatant Shield rip-off. Bucky was Timely's second blatant Robin (or was it of Shield's kid partner, I forget) rip-off at Timely, after Toro. Joe liked Kirby's art and his work rate, which was prodigious on CA. Personally, I prefer blah blah blah

Simon stole the idea - Kirby made it famous with his artwork - it sold over a million copies - and that's Kirby's fault? That's weird. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

S&K would milk the kid gang concept at D.C. for the Boy Commandos

Another hit that sold over a million copies.

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

and Newsboy Legion after their Timely tenure ended with CA 10.

Over at DC, other than the kid gang retreads, S&K didn't do anything of lasting impact. A redesign of Sandman and Manhunter. Kirby got drafted and they didn't do much until 1946 when they shifted to Harvey and created the forgettable Stuntman and, you guessed it, another kid gang comic Boy's Ranch. They knew how to milk a theme.

S&K did some romance

Did some Romance? You mean had yet another HIT - Young Romance and Young Love sold over TWO million copies a month and ran for almost 9 years and were copied by the entire industry.

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

(not the first time it was in comics, but they did create the first on-going romance title to capitalize on a trend Simon saw in magazines and pulps and felt was a big commercial opportunity - he was right, but Kirby was not Matt Baker), crime and other genre work. But I can't think of anything they did that really stands out as seminal.

They were the first creator team to be featured on the cover of a comic book. Because they SOLD. THAT is seminal. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Fighting American was a confused creation that started our serious and became a parody, apparently inspired because Atlas was doing CA (and other Timely heroes) without them.

The closest thing to a Silver Age comic in the GA. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Without Simon

What did Simon do without Kirby again?

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

, my favorite Kirby of the 50s was Sky Masters but that had the benefit of Wally Wood's involvement. It was a powerful art combination and the scripting by and Dave Wood was also top-notch (they did Challengers with Kirby at DC). After that, Kirby worked on Atlas monster books, which I agree are generally pretty boring (unlike the earlier pre-Kirby and Ditko Atlas books).

Challengers of the Unknown, another hit for Kirby. Released two months AFTER the first Silver Age Flash, got its own title almost a full year before Flash did. Even after he left the book stayed in print for 80+ more issues. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

Kirby's best days were clearly ahead of him starting with 1961. Do you really disagree and think his GA and 50s works puts him head and shoulders above others? I don't. 

Doesn't matter what I think, GA artists almost universally agree, that Kirby was a star. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

I think Kirby's 1930s-1950s works adds a polish to the reputation he rightly earned working at Marvel in the 60s, but it is a pale shadow of his 1960s work. Kirby is part of a pack in the GA and 50s. In the early to mid-60s, he's the top of the heap. It's easy to look too fondly at his GA work if you are smitten with his 60s work, but that doesn't help your case.

I don't compare future work with past - artists SHOULD improve - but Jack was a star in the 40's and 50's. And 60's and 70's. 

On 7/12/2022 at 2:37 PM, sfcityduck said:

I can think of many creators I'd rate above Kirby in the GA (not Stan Lee). For example, to pick a strong parallel, I'd put Bill Everett above Kirby in the GA for his work and creations at Centaur, Timely, Atlas and other publishers and consistently high quality work on genre comics in the 50s.  His art style was always appealing, but got better and better as his career progressed, as Kirby's did, but unlike Kirby, Everett peaked in the 50s reaching heights that few artists achieved. Kirby's art from that time period is a rung or two below Everett in my eyes, especially covers.

I think Everett is outstanding. But he couldn't do action like Kirby could. I'd have loved to see him ink Kirby though. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1956

For August Stan Lee wrote:

Millie the Model #73 with Dan DeCarlo art

Sherry the Showgirl #3 with Dan DeCarlo art - Last issue, becomes Showgirls for #4, and then one series would start in 1957 (lasting 3 issues))

A Date with Millie #2 with Dan DeCarlo art

Matt Slade, Gunfighter #3 - one Western filler story with Ted Gaindo. Last issue, becomes Kid Slade, Gunfighter with #4, ends with #8

Ringo Kid #15 - one Western filler story with Joe Maneely

Kid Colt Outlaw #66 - one Western filler story with Al Williamson

Two Gun Kid #34 - one Western filler story with Reed Crandall

Western Kid #13 - one Western filler story with Pete Morisi