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Heritage/ CGC Fraud?!

Started by clarkkentdds,

88 posts in this topic

clarkkentdds

clarkkentdds

Posted
Posted

OK...Somebody has some explaining to do....I was checking the new Heritage books for next week's ACA bimonthly auction, and I noticed a nice Superman #5 8.5 listed. It looked familiar to me, so I checked their past auctions list...Sure enough the same exact book was sold by Heritage during the October 2002 Nic Cage auction as a "8.0"! (for $2,415...much less than a 8.5 - highest graded will fetch.)

 

It is simple to identify both books as being the same because they have the identical placement of a written "P" at the top! Also.... Why does the 8.0 state "From the collection of Nic Cage" AND in the auction description "small stain at the 10 cent". The stain is absent on the 8.5 and there is no mention of the book being Nic Cage's!

 

So...This book was obviously cleaned to have the stain removed. This means... CGC missed the restoration and gave the book a blue label. Whoever originally bought this book risked having the book return with a purple label and had the stain removed...The risk of having a beautiful Sup #5 8.0 return RESTORED after a cleaing is basically just too great to have it cleaned...UNLESS the submitter "knew" this book would slip by CGC's trained eye as being "restored". Something smells rotten in Denmark!

 

Comments? I am not very computer savy, so I don't know how to host these pics, but you can check out what I'm talking about at Heritage's site. I know they had a problem like this before...But, I don't think those books in question had any restoration done to them!

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clarkkentdds

clarkkentdds

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I would never have a beautiful 8.0 copy cleaned for fear that it might get a purple restored label...That 8.5 has the stain REMOVED! So either the person who resubmitted the book KNEW it would come back unrestored, or CGC missed it. I'm uncomfortable with either possibility. Maybe CGC just doesn't catch the cleaned books.

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rob_react

rob_react

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Since the book wouldn't have to be taken apart to clean a small front cover stain, it doesn't surprise me at all that CGC could have missed it. To my understanding a skilled professional would leave no evidence when removing certain types of stains.

 

Also, unless I'm mistaken, Matt Nelson works for, or has done some work for, Heritage. On his site, he advertises a limited menu of conservation services that will not set off the "resto" alarms at CGC.

 

http://www.comicrestoration.freeservers.com/002-conserve.htm

 

Add the two together and this is not a surprising development at all. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that many books have undergone a similar transformation, it's just that Heritage is so high profile they've gotten caught doing it.

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ArAich

ArAich

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I thought "pressed" wasn't considered restoration? Why mention it?

 

 

That's exactly what I thought when I saw this book....I am thinking that this book was possibly graded at the inception of CGC and is a product of their early labeling/grading principles???....

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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>>Since the book wouldn't have to be taken apart to clean a small front cover stain, it doesn't surprise me at all that CGC could have missed it.

 

But that's not the point. It's the payoff vs. risk of cleaning a Universal 8.0 to get a Universal 8.5, compared to the prospect of receiving the Puple Label of Doom instead.

 

To me, I can't see it being worth the risk (however small) unless you are absolutely certain of getting away with it. Take from that comment what you will.

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clarkkentdds

clarkkentdds

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My point exactly! Why risk having a nice 8.0 come back a restored 8.5? The whole situation is just sketchy. It is just too far fetched to believe that someone would risk having an 8.0 cleaned and then regraded. Would you invest over $2K on a beautiful golden age book and then send it off to get cleaned???

 

An analogy that one might draw from this conclusion would be "insider trading"...It's just too risky to resubmit this book unless the resubmitter was absolutely positive the restoration would float by undetected!

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rob_react

rob_react

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I understand what you're saying and/or implying.

 

I was just pointing out that there is a small subset of defects that can be fixed/ removed/ cleaned by a skilled professional without leaving any reasonable trace. Matt did advertise the service. It's there for all to see in the link I posted earlier.

 

I could be mistaken since this isn't my area of expertise, but unless the process noticeably changes the texture of the paper, removes gloss, leaves an identifiable odor, etc. I don't think there's a lot for CGC to work with in detecting cleaning. I would guess that this was one of those defects.

 

If that was the case and if I had a restoration expert on my payroll tell me that they could remove that stain without leaving a trace, then I could see taking the chance.

 

I would also assume that they expected a larger jump in grade with the stain removal. A jump from 8.0 to a "Highest graded" 9.0 would bring with it a significant price increase.

 

Of course, what I'd really like is commentary from Heritage and/ or CGC.

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PedigreeMan

PedigreeMan

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(Adding something more to the stew ...) grin.gif

 

If this book was cleaned, why wasn't the pencil on the cover erased a la one of those infamous Cage Marvel Mysterys? confused.gif

 

Also, doesn't the white in the upper portion of the 10-cent box look a bit too white? And pixelated? Possibly some image manipulation going on here? shocked.gif

 

Al

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joe_collector

joe_collector

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>>I would also assume that they expected a larger jump in grade with the stain removal. A jump from 8.0 to a "Highest graded" 9.0 would bring with it a significant price increase.

 

Yep, that would make sense and might mitigate the risk a bit, but I'm still unsure of cleaning a book that valuable (in a Universal holder, no less) and taking even a chance with it.

 

Sure, $2K might not be a huge amount to Heritage, and they may be able to do it by cleaning and re-submitting hundreds of books and then making their profits in volume.

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Crackandpresstoan11

Crackandpresstoan11

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"Of course, what I'd really like is commentary from Heritage and/ or CGC."

 

This is all old news pointed out months ago. Both CGC and Heritage have made statements regarding this so called "grading arbitrage". Heritage has access to the best books on the market. I'm sure every book placed in their hands is gone over with a fine toothed comb by their experts and most likely a resto expert. Sounds like when Heritage finds a book is undergraded or can be improved with a light cleaning or pressing, they recommend a purchase to one of their BSD customers.... who then buy, regrade and flip. I'm surprised more of these have not been noticed. I'm sure this has been going on since the inception of cgc.

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BachelorOfComix

BachelorOfComix

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An actual link to the auction would be nice for all involved.

 

If you want something done right.....

 

http://www.heritagecomics.com/common/auctions/viewlot.asp?s=13051&l=16577&sid=B3D571E9FD30495EB5022B5C49C0FC16

Actually 2 links are needed for the "before & after" comparison.

 

Cheers,

 

Bachelor of Comics

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