Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Mmehdy]

Todays "Variety" had a review of the Stan Lee documentary by Owen Gleiberman which is coming to Disney...I would like it if I could link it dont know how...help.......very interesting review...comparing Kirby and Ditko as somewhat co-directors...I know here we have flushed out the truth, issue by issue and month by month...the real reality that Stan took at least 50% of the credit for 10% of the work. This thead or series of them are the best researched on these comic boards....what are your opinions on the review....thanks in advance

Edited June 11, 2023 by Mmehdy

[bc]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:52 PM, Mmehdy said:

Todays "Variety" had a review of the Stan Lee documentary by Owen Gleiberman which is coming to Disney...I would like it if I could link it dont know how...help.......very interesting review...comparing Kirby and Ditko as somewhat co-directors...I know here we have flushed out the truth, issue by issue and month by month...the real reality that Stan took at least 50% of the credit for 10% of the work. This thead or series of them are the best researched on these comic boards....what are your opinions on the review....thanks in advance

 

-bc

[bc]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:52 PM, Mmehdy said:

Todays "Variety" had a review of the Stan Lee documentary by Owen Gleiberman which is coming to Disney...I would like it if I could link it dont know how...help.......very interesting review...comparing Kirby and Ditko as somewhat co-directors...I know here we have flushed out the truth, issue by issue and month by month...the real reality that Stan took at least 50% of the credit for 10% of the work. This thead or series of them are the best researched on these comic boards....what are your opinions on the review....thanks in advance

Sorry, this is probably what you are referring to:

https://variety.com/2023/film/news/stan-lee-review-tribeca-festival-1235639764/

-bc

[Mmehdy]

Thanks BC...yesss

[Prince Namor]

I could barely get past the third or fourth paragraph. Complete nonsense.

And the Justice League was NOT the 'fulcrum' of the Silver Age, that's insane. It wasn't even one of the best selling books. 

It was #13, of the books that WERE listed. It sold almost half million LESS copies per month than DC's best selling Superman comics and 150,000 copies less per month than the 7TH RANKED Superman comic (Adventure Comics). It sold slightly better than Blackhawk and the Flash. Why not copy them? 

The first Statement of Ownership for Justice League of America was printed in Issue #9, on sale in February of 1962. It was put together and dated October 1st, 1961. MEANING that, the issue CLOSEST to that date, that they would have numbers for, would've been the one that came out the month before the previous (there wasn't an issue for September 1961), so August's issue would be the last that they possibly had numbers for. Which is #7. 

August of 1961 is the same month that FF #1 came out.

So Goodman, in April 1961, orders Stan to copy the Justice League with a team book, based upon 4 issues (#5 came out in April, but they would've probably only seen numbers for 4 issues by that point) - DESPITE having shut down the business in November of the previous year (and for whatever reason deciding to carry on) only to THEN - after he supposedly ok'd this deal... shut the presses down AGAIN in October of 1961... it makes NO sense. 

Goodman wasn't trying to build the business - he was continuing to DOWNSIZE it. 

Whatever the reasons where that they decided to do the Fantastic Four, it had nothing to do with what Goodman wanted - he certainly had no interest in Superheroes - and we know Stan originally lied about the 'golf game' he said Goodman had where he learned about the books success. 

The mainstream press just continues to buy into these hokey BS stories...

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1963

Tales of Suspense #51 - Written By: Stan (When Does He Sleep?) Lee  Illustrated by: Don (When Does He Eat?) Heck  Lettered by: Art (When Will He Learn To Spell?) Simek

Artie Simek was one of the people who insisted that the letterers should be a part of the credits as well. And Stan would passive aggressively take shots at them throughout the 60's beginning right here...

(Actually it's not just the Letterers job to spell check - it's the Editor's. Well its the Editors FINAL check. And Stan is the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to spelling).

And then we come to this story... another lame villain, motivated solely just by greed... he doesn't even have a reason to get a costume. What's the point? It makes him an easier target... just poor, poor writing and lack of creativity. Iron Man foiled by drapes and crows!!! WTF...

Edited June 12, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1963

Tales of Suspense #51 - Dreamed Up By: Stan Lee  Scribbled & Sketched by: Larry Lieber  Ink Splattered on by: Matt Fox   Lettering Scrawled by: Art Simek

Electro-Psychic Communication? And crows again...

Edited June 12, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1963

Tales of Suspense #51 - Story Plot: Stan Lee  Script & Art: L.D. Lieber  Inking: George Roussos  Lettering: S. Rosen

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:58 AM, Prince Namor said:

I could barely get past the third or fourth paragraph. Complete nonsense.

And the Justice League was NOT the 'fulcrum' of the Silver Age, that's insane. It wasn't even one of the best selling books. 

It was #13, of the books that WERE listed. It sold almost half million LESS copies per month than DC's best selling Superman comics and 150,000 copies less per month than the 7TH RANKED Superman comic (Adventure Comics). It sold slightly better than Blackhawk and the Flash. Why not copy them? 

The first Statement of Ownership for Justice League of America was printed in Issue #9, on sale in February of 1962. It was put together and dated October 1st, 1961. MEANING that, the issue CLOSEST to that date, that they would have numbers for, would've been the one that came out the month before the previous (there wasn't an issue for September 1961), so August's issue would be the last that they possibly had numbers for. Which is #7. 

August of 1961 is the same month that FF #1 came out.

So Goodman, in April 1961, orders Stan to copy the Justice League with a team book, based upon 4 issues (#5 came out in April, but they would've probably only seen numbers for 4 issues by that point) - DESPITE having shut down the business in November of the previous year (and for whatever reason deciding to carry on) only to THEN - after he supposedly ok'd this deal... shut the presses down AGAIN in October of 1961... it makes NO sense. 

Goodman wasn't trying to build the business - he was continuing to DOWNSIZE it. 

Whatever the reasons where that they decided to do the Fantastic Four, it had nothing to do with what Goodman wanted - he certainly had no interest in Superheroes - and we know Stan originally lied about the 'golf game' he said Goodman had where he learned about the books success. 

The mainstream press just continues to buy into these hokey BS stories...

 

Yes, it often seems that S. Lee's only true creation is the fictional story about how Marvel Comics began.

[Steven Valdez]

Marvel settles with four artists in superhero copyright fight

https://www.reuters.com/legal/marvel-settles-with-four-artists-superhero-copyright-fight-2023-06-09/

Includes Mr Larry Lieber.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Steven Valdez
extra info

[Prince Namor]

On 6/11/2023 at 11:42 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Marvel settles with four artists in superhero copyright fight

https://www.reuters.com/legal/marvel-settles-with-four-artists-superhero-copyright-fight-2023-06-09/

Includes Mr Larry Lieber.

Shocking how Larry Lieber makes out in all of this.

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/12/2023 at 8:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

Shocking how Larry Lieber makes out in all of this.

Did Larry Lieber ever "write" anything that wasn't already "plotted" by his brother?

[Prince Namor]

On 6/12/2023 at 7:03 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Did Larry Lieber ever "write" anything that wasn't already "plotted" by his brother?

or that Kirby hadn't already written and drawn.

[Zonker]

In fairness, Larry was credited as both scripter and penciler of a bunch of Marvel Westerns in the mid-1960s, without any Stan Lee sig or plotting credit. (or Kirby layouts for that matter)

[Steven Valdez]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:32 PM, Zonker said:

In fairness, Larry was credited as both scripter and penciler of a bunch of Marvel Westerns in the mid-1960s, without any Stan Lee sig or plotting credit. (or Kirby layouts for that matter)

I wonder how good they were? Never read any but I've seen his art on some of those. A poor man's Kirby, lots of direct swipes.

 

[Prince Namor]

Stan claimed in 'Origins of Marvel Comics' that he and Jack were 'having a ball doing the monster comics'.

But skeptics point out that Stan NEVER signed a single Kirby monster story, yet signed 99.9% of everything he worked on during that time. 

In the 70's, as many of the stories are reprinted, Lee has his name added in new credit boxes. No mention of Larry Lieber at all. (Kirby never signed his name to the stories either. Only when Dick Ayers began inking them and adding 'Kirby/Ayers' did we see the credit. 

In doing research on those stories from the original art - Kirby clearly wrote the original dialogue (HIS) into word balloons on the page, that the letterer inked from. It's Kirby's handwriting. 

Lee never addresses the skepticism surrounding his non-signing of the work, with anything other than, 'He didn't always remember to sign everything - sometimes he did - sometimes he didn't'. But Stan didn't sign ANY of Kirby's Monster Stories. ZERO.

Will Murray does an article in Comics Collector #3, Spring 1984, on the Marvel Monster stories and credits KIRBY as the writer/artist. No mention at all of Larry Lieber. (When the story is updated 20 some years later in TJKC #77, it has been altered to ADD the Larry Lieber myth.)

Kirby passes away in February of 1994.

December 27, 1996 Marvel files for bankruptcy.

Early 1998 Isaac Perlmutter terminates Marvel's $1 million-a-year lifetime-employment contract with Stan Lee.

Less than a year after Jack's death, Will Murray again does a story on the Marvel Monster stories, this time in Comics Scene #52, September 1995, less than a year after Kirby's death. Suddenly Larry Lieber begins to make the claim that he wrote the monster stories for Jack and that Stan gave a rough plot of Thor, Iron Man, and Ant-Man to him and he scripted and came up with all of the names and stories.

(BARRON'S) November 1998 -- a month after assigning his intellectual property to Stan Lee Media -- Lee had gone to Marvel claiming half-ownership of Spider-Man, the X-Men and other characters, since Marvel had cancelled his previous rights assignment in its bankruptcy. Lee got a new contract for up to $1 million in annual salary and 10% of movie and TV profits, assigning Marvel his rights in those characters.

Roz Kirby passes away in December of 1998. 

Less than a year after Roz's death, in Roy Thomas' Alter Ego V3N2 (don't forget that it IS Roy's Magazine), Larry suddenly offers up that he wrote Kirby's monster stories AND his Thor, Ant-Man, Iron Man stories! Not a WORD about it for 40 years and then this. All after Jack and Roz had passed away. 

 

Lee used Larry to cover up his lies and make his 'Plot Story' BS seem to fit, so that he could claim ownership of the characters and get his $1 Million a year contract (plus other benefits) with Marvel.

 

Need more?

Add to that... just like the monster books - there are no credits on the first few Thor and Ant-Man stories - just the 'Kirby/Ayers' signing that Ayers does...  that Stan Lee then White Paints over. (It does show up in JIM #84). It isn't until the FOURTH appearance of each character, that Larry Lieber's name shows up in the credit box.

Larry's name only appears with Kirby on TEN stories - just TEN STORIES throughout the whole Silver Age - all in a row - Cover dated November 1962 thru February 1963 - Journey Into Mystery #86-89... Cover dated December 1962 thru February 1963 - Tales to Astonish #38-40... Cover dated December 1962 thru February 1963 - Strange Tales #103-105.

Just enough time for Jack to see that CREDIT BOX, say, "What the HELL?" and then immediately QUIT all 3 of those books, refusing to work on anything where a novice like Larry is credited with scripting HIS actual work.

He stops doing art on just THOSE THREE books immediately - and NEVER again has a byline with Larry Lieber. 

Each of those books, TTA, JIM and TOS when written by Larry the following issue, are noticeably bad. Some of the worst of the Marvel Silver Age, even worse than some of Stan's non-Kirby/Ditko work. In fact, Journey Into Mystery #90 might easily be the worst Marvel Silver Age book of the decade, because Al Hartley's art is so bad on top of the ridiculously dumb story. 

It doesn't take a Detective as good as Batman to figure out what's going on there. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/12/2023 at 9:37 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I wonder how good they were? Never read any but I've seen his art on some of those. A poor man's Kirby, lots of direct swipes.

 

Never read any of them either, but never heard anyone praising them...It DOES seem funny though... the genius who co-created Thor (yeah, ok), Ant-Man, and Iron Man, was never assigned another superhero after that... he was relegated to the Rawhide Kid, a book that featured a 5 to 8 page reprint every issue.

(He also did 4 ten page Dr. Doom stories, three with Wally Wood (another guy known for writing his own stuff) in 1971, and some odds and ends here and there.)

It's pretty easy to see through 

[PopKulture]

On 6/12/2023 at 9:03 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Now that… is a truly wonderful page of original art!! 

[Zonker]

I was hoping we would get Larry's rumored autobiography to either clear up some of these contradictions (or alternatively, offer even more contradictions, therefore lending more evidence to this thread's prevailing narrative of Lee, Lieber and Thomas all in collusion to hide the truth).

But with the settlement, he is no doubt locked up in an NDA.  Doubtful we'll get any further comments from Larry on these matters.  

[Prince Namor]

The stories tell the story.