Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

So in January 1963, the Fantastic Four #13 comes out with Jack Kirby's art, but Journey Into Mystery #90 comes out WITHOUT a Kirby story (Stan is shrewd enough to have him still do the covers for all of these books), the first time in 36 consecutive months an issue of JIM is released without a Kirby story, including 7 consecutive Thor stories...

Tales to Astonish #42 would also come out in January, the first time in 31 consecutive months an issue of it is released without a Kirby story, including an Ant-Man installment in each of the previous 6...

Strange Tales #107 would also come out in January, the first time in 39 consecutive months an issue of it is released without a Kirby story, including a Human Torch installment in each of the previous 5...

Hulk #6, the first issue without Kirby after the first 5 consecutive issues. 

Rawhide Kid #33 - the first issue in 16 consecutive issue to NOT feature a Kirby story...

 

It also should be taken into consideration that Kirby was asking for writer or plotter credit and Stan REMOVED him from these titles... something we'd see Stan do with Ditko later on with Hulk in Tales to Astonish (he'd also stop talking to him and refusing to meet with him on ASM/Dr. Strange after he asked for plot credit) - he'd also take Wally Wood off of Daredevil after he asked for plot credit...

Did Lee cut Kirby's pages to punish him, and then slowly add him back in?

Something happened here. Jack didn't need 7 months to create 4 extra books. 

[Zonker]

Interesting trivia that Al Hartley was related to Senator Hartley from Taft-Hartley.  Is it Daniel Greenberg's theory that Stan plotted the villains to be a criticism of Senator Hartley's politics, and then sadistically forced Hartley's son to draw it?  Or that Larry somehow got wind that Al Hartley was going to draw this one, and included a couple of bits of mildly-political dialogue as something of an in-joke?

Prefer to think this is just a coincidence.  The story is bad enough, if the people responsible had actually put that much thought into making some sort of political statement, well, that just makes it worse they couldn't have used that energy to come up with a better story in the first place.  

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6 - Steve Ditko cover, Story: Stan Lee, Art: Steve Ditko

Whatever Stan's thoughts or ideas on this book, it ultimately got cancelled because none of them seemed to stick. This issue is no exception and just confuses the story more. Ditko's influence on the story is evident here, as many of the elements he'd use in the Amazing Spider-man are already seen here - Identity issues, the mask, being unmasked - but strangely, Stan who always claimed to dislike teen age sidekicks, creates a Kirbyesque TEAM of them, the Teen Brigade, led by Rick Jones. This story is a bit of a mess as well...

Part ONE:

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

This is a pet peeve of mine that shows how out of synch the 'writer' is with the artist... you really could've done this all in one panel, but Ditko's just not sure how much Stan has in dialogue to write in...

 

And what's with the Hulk's feet on the cover???

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

This is just poor writing. Everyone on his home planet had the power to control metal, but HE was exiled because he wanted to use his power to 'conquer all!'. That's pretty vague.

 

So he searched the galaxy to find a planet rich in metal, that he could rule. 

 

 

In early interviews up through the 70's and 80's, Stan loved to say how his characters would see an alien, and unlike DC Comics, who'd take it seriously, Marvel characters would point out 'He's nutty as a fruit cake!' That IS a difference, though it's somewhat... silly in hindsight. The guy has already melted a multi-billion dollar space probe - is our military intelligence that willing to throw caution to the wind, and risk lives, by telling the guy to PROVE he is what he says?

 

So his plan is to take over this one base on the entire planet and then demand to be accepted a leader of the world within 24 hours? Lazy writing. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

 

Yeah, this just seems out of place... but very Ditko.

 

And Banner just happened to have masks of his Hulk head on display for use...

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

 

The Hulk suddenly achieves the ability to now make his face change...

 

 

Another 'talking planet' panel by Ditko. Keep in mind this telling us the whole world is in a state of panic, because in the next panel...

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

 

The whole world is in panic and Rick is creating a Ham Radio club...

 

What's up with Stan suddenly using multiple exclamation points and multiple and mixed question marks. Who do we know who does that???!!!

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6 - I'm just going to finish the story and then address the dumb ending...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6

Rick creates the Teen Brigade - goes to get his 'duds' and it just so happens Bruce needs help to beat the Metal Master!

 

Of course we know what his plan is - to put together a painted cardboard hand cannon that looks metal. Why then would the 'Teen Brigade' be ordering parts from all over the country? Tubes and circuits have metal in them, so Hulk wouldn't be able to use them. And the Metal Master gave his ultimatum of just 24 hours... there's no Amazon Prime in 1963... this makes no sense.

 

Another 'talking planet panel'....

 

Hulk still is talking like the Thing throughout the story....

 

More snappy dialogue from the Modern Day Shakespeare. 

 

The Metal Master reverses everything he's done throughout the entire world. LOL. Just lazy writing...

 

The Metal Master can undo everything he did, but he can't figure out how to beat the Hulk. Ok. Duh.

 

 

Makes... no.... sense...

 

J. Jonah 'Thunderbolt' Ross.

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Incredible Hulk #6 - Letters page

 

This is one of the reason the Hulk failed. Stan Lee SO wanted to be liked by the fanzine crowd that he LISTENED to the fan letters (because he had so few of his own) and tried to make changes to Jack's ideas (because he had so few of his own).

 

Wait... did they NOT know the Hulk was being cancelled???

 

The Hulk was flying.

 

Again, did they NOT know the Hulk was being cancelled??? If so, why not say here, as the book had already been bought. If they DID know... that means Stan's reason for Jack not doing the book are PROVEN to be a lie...

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

 They canceled the Hulk after #6 because they didn't want to have to respond to any letters from readers asking what the heck was going on with #6.  

[Prince Namor]

On 2/18/2023 at 9:58 AM, Zonker said:

 They canceled the Hulk after #6 because they didn't want to have to respond to any letters from readers asking what the heck was going on with #6.  

Lol, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me!

If here originally were no plans to cancel the Hulk, then Ditko was lied to:

 

And it lends more credence to a blow up that occurred around this time:

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

As early as October, they knew about Sgt. Fury and had it on the schedule:

Late in the month, Stan’s secretary writes to Mike Tuohey once again, giving him fanzine fodder:
“There is a new war mag in the making—Sergeant Fury and his Howling Commandos, on sale March 5th.
“And lastly, starting with ish #91 of Journey into Mystery, Joe Sinnott will be drawing Thor.”

 -- October 29, 1962 letter from Judy Walsh to fan Mike Tuohey (from Twomorrow's Stuf Said)

 

So How much of Sgt. Fury was done in OCTOBER for a March release??? Enough that he didn't need 5 months to complete it:

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

Journey Into Mystery #90 comes out on January 3rd, and Jerry Bails gets a letter to Stan Lee almost immediately - and Stan RESPONDS almost immediately (January 9th!!!)... this well known correspondence, tells us a LOT, though we have to read through some of Stan's BS....

“You’re right about Al Hartley’s art work not being right for Thor. Actually, Al specializes in teen-age strips (he does the Patsy Walker mag for us) and simply pinch-hit Jrny. Into Mystery because it was an emergency—Jack was busy with an FF ish that was late, Joe Sinnott was tied up with another job, etc.”

LATE? Jack wasn't late. That's not something anyone ever claimed about Kirby in his career. If anything, Jack was always AHEAD of schedule, and working on MORE. The emergency Stan speaks of, was... something else. Something I believe was a head butting between the two. Stan is lying and making an excuse because it serves him better. 

“As for Jack starting strips and then turning ’em over to less talented artists—well, it’s not quite that simple. The poor guy only has two hands, and can only draw with one! I like to have him start as many strips as possible, to get them off on the right foot—but he cannot physically keep ’em all up—in fact, I sometimes wonder how he does as much as he does do. At present he will concentrate on FF and our new war mag, Sgt. Fury—as well as pinch-hitting for other features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of course.”

NO mention of the Avengers or the X-Men... Remember, this is Jerry Bails he's sending this to, someone who can promote and advance upcoming projects to fans for him - yet NO mention of the FF Annual, X-Men or Avengers in January, DESPITE Kirby suddenly having his page count cut in HALF.

Kirby, who'd been knocking out over 86-116 pages a month is suddenly dropped to 43-49?

And notice again, how Stan writes that:

At present he will concentrate on FF and our new war mag, Sgt. Fury—as well as pinch-hitting for other features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of course.”

That's someone being DEMOTED. Stan is not happy because Jack wants writing/plotting CREDIT. This is how Stan deals with those who want credit and/or pay for something that HE wants. As the little boss for Martin Goodman, his relative by marriage, it is HE who rules.

And even Bails must've noticed some of the stories this month aren't up to par, as Stan responds:

“It isn’t a question of can’t our artists do better (or can’t I write better)—it’s more a question of how well can we do in the brief time alloted to us? Some day, in some far distant Nirvana, perhaps we will have a chance to produce a strip without a frantic deadline hanging over us... and then, brother, you’ll see ---script and artwork that’ll put EVERYBODY to shame!”

Stan blames it on TIME, yet it's clear that he has his editorial duties out of whack, because of personal issues with trying to keep up appearances that HE is the genius behind all of this. Why else would he have Al Hartley and Larry Lieber doing 13 pages of Thor for January and Kirby doing 18 pages of Love Romances for December and February release?

THAT is out of whack.

And speaking of advance previews:

“We have a new character in the works for Strange Tales (just a 5-page filler named Dr. Strange).

Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps we can make something of him—’twas Steve’s idea, and I figgered we’d give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too much.

'The first story is nothing great', Stan puts down Ditko's work, but... the first story is DONE, for a book that comes out in APRIL. Yet no mention of Kirby working on the FF Annual, or X-Men or the Avengers. WHY was his work load cut down again???

“FF is easily our favorite book here at the Marvel bullpen. It’s my baby and I love it. People have asked for original scripts—actually, we don’t even HAVE any. I write  the story plot—go over it with Jack—he draws it up based on our hasty conferences—then, with his drawings in front of me, I write the captions and dialogue, usually right on the original artwork! It seems to work out well, although it’s not a system I’d advise anyone else to try.

Mmm-hmmm.

“ANT-MAN seemed to need a shot in the arm, so we added the WASP as A.M’s partner. Hope she’ll help. 

Kirby will have gone 5 straight issues of NOT doing Ant-Man, when he does #44 for March 1963 release - the book needing a 'shot in the arm' as Lee calls it - Ernie Hart (as H.E. Huntley for some reason) is listed as '---script' with a Stan Lee 'plot'. No sign of writing genius, and classic character creator Larry Lieber anywhere (that's sarcasm) and it's interesting that they have to insert Kirby as artist to get a new character created - though it's now listed as a 3 man creative team for the intricately nuanced, multi faceted, advance characterization of the WASP. (That's more sarcasm).

As for SPIDER-MAN, I wouldn’t be surprised if he turns into a real winner, judging by the mail we’re receiving—tremendous enthusiasm from the readers.

He sounds surprised... I don't believe Stan thought Ditko could carry a title...

“Mail—that’s my biggest problem. I take it too damn seriously—read each and every letter— wish I could answer ’em all—we get over a hun- dred a day—sometimes over 500!!! (after a long week-end). Can’t keep up with it. Fans keep asking for MORE letters pages—wish we didn’t have ANY!... [We] base many decisions on comments from our mailbag.”

Marvel is definitely getting a response... wonder how much of this is exaggeration... they ARE getting a response though, obviously...

[We] base many decisions on comments from our mailbag.”

Geez, I just cringe every time I read this...

Edited February 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:44 PM, Zonker said:

Interesting trivia that Al Hartley was related to Senator Hartley from Taft-Hartley.  Is it Daniel Greenberg's theory that Stan plotted the villains to be a criticism of Senator Hartley's politics, and then sadistically forced Hartley's son to draw it?  Or that Larry somehow got wind that Al Hartley was going to draw this one, and included a couple of bits of mildly-political dialogue as something of an in-joke?

Prefer to think this is just a coincidence.  The story is bad enough, if the people responsible had actually put that much thought into making some sort of political statement, well, that just makes it worse they couldn't have used that energy to come up with a better story in the first place.  

 

Stan was certainly vindictive enough to shame Hartley in this way, but I doubt he was savvy enough to pull it off. Assuming this story (loosely defined) was done Marvel Style, the design of the villains would have been Hartley's responsibility, in any event.