Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Also in Tales to Astonish #43 we get a Stan Lee plot, with Larry Lieber --script AND art (which is pretty decent!), Sol Brodsky inking and Art Simek lettering for this clever little 5 page story. Is this an example of Lee and Lieber being creative???

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

No. They stole the story idea from Werner Roth's 1955 story/art from Strange Tales #131. 

So the Lieber's story is another winner from the Marvel House of Copied Ideas! That is what a Kirby-less Marvel would've looked like. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

The final story in Tales to Astonish #43 is credit box free and simply signed as Stan Lee and S. Ditko. One their 'brain teasers'. 

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:12 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

The final story in Tales to Astonish #43 is credit box free and simply signed as Stan Lee and S. Ditko. One their 'brain teasers'. 

 

This would be leftover inventory from when Amazing Adult Fantasy was canceled in mid-1962, I suppose, considering the absence of a credit box.

It reads better than the retread story above (Frankie's Fast Ball). Might this be a Ditko plot? The sin and retribution angle seems to fit his world view.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
minor rewording

[Prince Namor]

On 2/24/2023 at 10:09 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

This would be leftover inventory from when Amazing Adult Fantasy was canceled in mid-1962, I suppose, considering the absence of a credit box.

It reads better than the retread story above (Frankie's Fast Ball). Might this be a Ditko plot? The sin and retribution angle seems to fit his world view.

Possibly. Both stories might've got rejected by DC Comics. 

[Dr. Haydn]

A compassionate court system in the early 1960s! I guess it helped that Mr. Weems was an old white guy.

The Lieber Brothers sure hit us over the head with the moral of the story. I'm reminded of those ABC After School Specials that (supposedly) instilled positive attributes into kids of this era to turn them into model citizens!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - It's was so interesting to hear Ditko's take on these issues when I eventually read these essay's... what a refreshing change of pace from Lee's "I saw a Spider on the wall and it gave me the idea!" silly nonsense. Ditko really thought out these things - like a real artist and creator would do...

And by the way, not meaning to offend anyone but the Owl sucks. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - Stan's whole reasoning comes from what Others, Outsiders (OO's as Ditko calls them) think and want. He's trying to appease the fan boy who'll vote for him in the Alley Awards. He's fawning for attention.

Ditko is trying to do what makes sense for the story... it's especially interesting to hear him say Stan wanted more of Spider-man and LESS of Peter Parker and his personal life - the very things that made this character more entertaining than every other comic book on the newsstands!

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - Ditko used the split face concept for the first time on Captain Atom in 1962...

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - More from Stan Taylor (TJKC #70):

 

What are the odds, if Kirby didn’t assist on the plots, that the first three Spider-Man stories would mirror the first three Private Strong stories? Wouldn’t one think that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko would have their own plotting patterns? Astoundingly, the second issue of Amazing Spider-Man continues in this same vein.

The Vulture story from ASM #2 is interesting because not only does it have plot elements from an earlier Kirby story, but the bad guy is an exact duplicate of the villain from that same Kirby story. In the first Manhunter story (Adventure Comics #73, DC Comics, 1942), Kirby introduced The Buzzard, who, in an uncanny parallel to the Vulture, is a skinny, stoop shouldered, hump-backed, beak-nosed maniac, dressed in a green body suit with a feathered collar that encircles the neck. Both men have the power of flight—the Buzzard by flapping his cape, and the Vulture via mechanical wings and a magnetic unit.

 

Both men’s shtick is to openly challenge the authorities and the media by boasting of their evil plans before they commit them. The Buzzard goes so far as to actually kill a reporter to deliver his message; the Vulture (in post-Comics Code times) simply throws a rock through J. Jonahs’s window.

The Tinkerer story in ASM #2 has a very interesting hook, a plot element where a radio is doctored and infiltrated into scientists and government officials’ houses in order to spy and/ or control them. This is not some generic scheme, but a very detailed and specific plot element used by Jack Kirby several times. The earliest use is in Captain America #7 (Marvel Comics, Oct. 1941), in a story titled “Horror Plays the Scales.” Kirby again used this element in a crime story from Headline Comics #24, (Prize Publications, May 1947) titled “Murder on a Wavelength.”

The alien aspect of this Spidey story appears adapted from a Kirby “Dr. Droom” story. In his third story, “Doctor Droom Meets Zemu” (Amazing Adventures #3, Marvel 1961), Droom is following a suspicious character and overhears a plan by aliens in which one will infiltrate humanity and lay the groundwork for an alien invasion. Kirby used this same plot in “Earth Will Be Lost Tonight” (Strange Tales #93, Marvel, Feb. 1962). Spider-Man’s capture and escape method seem to be lifted from a Challs story “The Human Pets” (Challengers of the Unknown #3, DC Comics, 1958).

I could find no matching plots from Lee or Ditko. All of these stories are structured in typical Kirby style, with little characterization, all-out action endings devoid of any of the subtlety, pathos, or irony usually associated with current Lee/Ditko offerings.

And it goes on this way for a few more stories. This similar plotting sequence is a lot like DNA testing; one or two match-ups doesn’t mean a thing, but the odds increase exponentially with each added matched item.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - In issue #1, Stan couldn't remember Peter Parker's name, and in #2 he has Peter call Flash Thompson by the name "Moose"! Maybe Stan thought he was dialoguing Archie Comics!

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - Cover, co-creation, co-plot and interior art by Steve Ditko. Co-plot and dialogue written in by Stan Lee. Lettering by John Duffy!

Story ONE:

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - Cover, co-creation, co-plot and interior art by Steve Ditko. Co-plot and dialogue written in by Stan Lee. Lettering by Art Simek!

Story TWO:

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JANUARY 1963

Amazing Spider-man #2 - More from Stan Taylor (TJKC #70):

 

What are the odds, if Kirby didn’t assist on the plots, that the first three Spider-Man stories would mirror the first three Private Strong stories? Wouldn’t one think that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko would have their own plotting patterns? Astoundingly, the second issue of Amazing Spider-Man continues in this same vein.

The Vulture story from ASM #2 is interesting because not only does it have plot elements from an earlier Kirby story, but the bad guy is an exact duplicate of the villain from that same Kirby story. In the first Manhunter story (Adventure Comics #73, DC Comics, 1942), Kirby introduced The Buzzard, who, in an uncanny parallel to the Vulture, is a skinny, stoop shouldered, hump-backed, beak-nosed maniac, dressed in a green body suit with a feathered collar that encircles the neck. Both men have the power of flight—the Buzzard by flapping his cape, and the Vulture via mechanical wings and a magnetic unit.

 

Both men’s shtick is to openly challenge the authorities and the media by boasting of their evil plans before they commit them. The Buzzard goes so far as to actually kill a reporter to deliver his message; the Vulture (in post-Comics Code times) simply throws a rock through J. Jonahs’s window.

The Tinkerer story in ASM #2 has a very interesting hook, a plot element where a radio is doctored and infiltrated into scientists and government officials’ houses in order to spy and/ or control them. This is not some generic scheme, but a very detailed and specific plot element used by Jack Kirby several times. The earliest use is in Captain America #7 (Marvel Comics, Oct. 1941), in a story titled “Horror Plays the Scales.” Kirby again used this element in a crime story from Headline Comics #24, (Prize Publications, May 1947) titled “Murder on a Wavelength.”

The alien aspect of this Spidey story appears adapted from a Kirby “Dr. Droom” story. In his third story, “Doctor Droom Meets Zemu” (Amazing Adventures #3, Marvel 1961), Droom is following a suspicious character and overhears a plan by aliens in which one will infiltrate humanity and lay the groundwork for an alien invasion. Kirby used this same plot in “Earth Will Be Lost Tonight” (Strange Tales #93, Marvel, Feb. 1962). Spider-Man’s capture and escape method seem to be lifted from a Challs story “The Human Pets” (Challengers of the Unknown #3, DC Comics, 1958).

I could find no matching plots from Lee or Ditko. All of these stories are structured in typical Kirby style, with little characterization, all-out action endings devoid of any of the subtlety, pathos, or irony usually associated with current Lee/Ditko offerings.

And it goes on this way for a few more stories. This similar plotting sequence is a lot like DNA testing; one or two match-ups doesn’t mean a thing, but the odds increase exponentially with each added matched item.

The Stan Taylor essays were what I was remembering when I mentioned the idea that Kirby produced storylines in advance for his super-hero blitz presentations, including possibly the original concept of his Spiderman.  But re-reading it now, I realize it is equally possible that Kirby was plotting these with Stan to pass along to Ditko.  Or that Stan was re-using Kirby plotlines without Kirby or Ditko necessarily knowing about it!

[Prince Namor]

On 2/25/2023 at 1:28 PM, Zonker said:

The Stan Taylor essays were what I was remembering when I mentioned the idea that Kirby produced storylines in advance for his super-hero blitz presentations, including possibly the original concept of his Spiderman.  But re-reading it now, I realize it is equally possible that Kirby was plotting these with Stan to pass along to Ditko.  Or that Stan was re-using Kirby plotlines without Kirby or Ditko necessarily knowing about it!

Absolutely. Kirby was a fountain of ideas, constantly thinking of stories... I have numerous quotes from the Golden Age through to the Bronze Age of people talking about this, so it only stands to reason Stan would write down what he'd hear in these 'story conferences' and then when another artist would come in, he'd share those ideas as if his own. 

Which again, makes sense in that Kirby left Marvel and created the whole Universe of the New Gods and Kamandi, while Stan left Marvel and created She-Hulk and Stripperella. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #14 says that Stan Lee wrote the '--script' (though we know there was no --script for it), Jack Kirby did the art (though we know at the very least he also co-plotted it), D. Ayers did the inking and Art Simek did the lettering.

Part ONE: 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #14 - some of Stan's not-so-subtle sexism.

Daniel Greenberg from Facebook: 

Sue was on the same mission to the moon as the rest of them, and she was the one who beat the Red Ghost and saved the other three from his deadly trap. To enhance her heroism, Kirby shows her as the only one with energy after the tense mission.

Stan Lee undercuts Kirby's depiction of Sue's fortitude by having her wilt into "house cleaning" and by making Reed an insulting, misogynist creep.

Go call Namor, honey.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #14 - Part TWO:

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #14 - Part THREE:

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1963

Fantastic Four #14 - Part FOUR:

Edited February 27, 2023 by Prince Namor