CGC QC Warped Inner Cases 3 3

[dmt02908]

Another frustration that doesn't get acknowledged with the MECHANICAL ERROS designation is that it takes sometimes up to twenty photos to properly capture the warped inner case phenomena.

And when I receive an entire case of MECHNICAL ERROR books as a result of their being subjected to severe heat in transit is that it takes me, literally, three to four hours (per case) to photograph the problems, describe the problems in an email using a PowerPoint presentation, fill out the ME submission form, and re-pack the books for the ME return.

Edited February 21, 2023 by dmt02908

[dmt02908]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:45 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have been made aware of the problem, and will be speaking with management about it on Monday.  

Mike, I am about to submit what I hope is my final round of MECHNICAL ERRORS on books that I just received back from re-holdering.

That means that these books will have gone through two crack outs before it is all said and done. 

I know that CGC holds no liability for a reduction in the grades of the books upon re-holdering, but it seems very problematic to me when there is a potential downgrading of the book based on the exposure caused by their mistake not mine. 

I have attached photos of one such case here. There is a hair inside the inner case of this CGC 9.8 Wolverine #8.

If you look closely, the area where that hair is has already been stressed. 

So, the question is "Do I risk the downgrading of the book (in terms of condition, not just the grade) to have that removed?"

I didn't put that hair in there. But my book gets exposed to possible damage because of CGC's errors because:

1. whoever encased the book didn't notice the hair; and,

2. whoever quality-controlled the book didn't notice it either.

And what was the original re-holder for? Warped Inner Cases. 

Just so you know, there has never been any indication on any of the submission forms, invoices, or packing slips about the optimal temperature range to keep inner cases from remaining un-warped.

It seems to me that it is precisely because they know that the exposure of these cases to excessive heat in transit will result in the warping that I have documented in multiple PowerPoints.

I think they are just shipping out and hoping for the best or that the customers (and their buyers) won't notice.

As a collector, this is just not acceptable. As a seller, it seems very problematic to me to sell a book that is downgraded in condition but not from the official grade that was originally assigned to the book.

The truth is, I am taking loss after loss (in time, money, and stress) even though everybody else in the supply chain is taking gain after gain.

Thanks,

Dave

Edited February 26, 2023 by dmt02908

[dmt02908]

Out of a case of twenty-five recent re-holders, I pulled twenty from the box with issues that warrant a MECHNICAL ERROS designation:

CGC 9.6 Secret Wars # 8: Scratches on outer case and inner case in the left thigh area:

CGC 9.6 Detective Comics #576: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed:

CGC 9.6 Detective Comics #577: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed:

CGC 9.6 SS Amazing Spider-Man #301: Scratched outer case (front and center) and pressed book looks un-pressed:

NOTE: Book is not laying flat; it is curving upward, stressing the spine, and bubbling the book: 

CGC 9.6 Marvel Tales #237: Scratches on outer case and pressed book looks un-pressed (actually, warped):

CGC 9.6 Marvel Tales #239: Scratches on back cover of outer case and scratches front and center on front:

 

C

CGC 9.6 Spectacular Spider-Man #101: Scratches on outer cases and pressed book looks un-pressed:

NOTE: Book is bowed; even though it was CCS pressed, it is not laying flat, so it is stressing the spine:

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by dmt02908

[CGC Mike]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:55 AM, dmt02908 said:

Mike, I am about to submit what I hope is my final round of MECHNICAL ERRORS on books that I just received back from re-holdering.

That means that these books will have gone through two crack outs before it is all said and done. 

I know that CGC holds no liability for a reduction in the grades of the books upon re-holdering, but it seems very problematic to me when there is a potential downgrading of the book based on the exposure caused by their mistake not mine. 

I have attached photos of one such case here. There is a hair inside the inner case of this CGC 9.8 Wolverine #8.

If you look closely, the area where that hair is has already been stressed. 

So, the question is "Do I risk the downgrading of the book (in terms of condition, not just the grade) to have that removed?"

I didn't put that hair in there. But my book gets exposed to possible damage because of CGC's errors because:

1. whoever encased the book didn't notice the hair; and,

2. whoever quality-controlled the book didn't notice it either.

And what was the original re-holder for? Warped Inner Cases. 

Just so you know, there has never been any indication on any of the submission forms, invoices, or packing slips about the optimal temperature range to keep inner cases from remaining un-warped.

It seems to me that it is precisely because they know that the exposure of these cases to excessive heat in transit will result in the warping that I have documented in multiple PowerPoints.

I think they are just shipping out and hoping for the best or that the customers (and their buyers) won't notice.

As a collector, this is just not acceptable. As a seller, it seems very problematic to me to sell a book that is downgraded in condition but not from the official grade that was originally assigned to the book.

The truth is, I am taking loss after loss (in time, money, and stress) even though everybody else in the supply chain is taking gain after gain.

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry that you are having these problems.  The best I can do is give the team a link to this thread, which I will do.

Mike

 

[dmt02908]

On 2/25/2023 at 7:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

I am sorry that you are having these problems.  The best I can do is give the team a link to this thread, which I will do.

Mike

 

Much appreciated. I am working up a PowerPoint that I can submit on Monday.

Thanks Mike,

Dave

[dmt02908]

As I review this case of re-holdered books, which I will be submitting for MECHANICAL ERRORS reholdering, it appears that there is a pattern of scratching on the inside border of the outer case.

Of course, this could just be a unnoticed (or ignored) production flaw in the case.

However, I noticed that with recent case shipments from CGC, they are no longer placing the cardboard over the open part of the box that used to serve as the top of "box within the box."  

Because the outer case design allows the cases to interlock in shipping and storage, it looks like the interlocking design is actually causing abrasions to the cases in transit because the "box within the box" is now open-ended.

Yes, there is some bubble wrap to fill the gap between the two boxes, but the open-endedness is allowing far more movement of the cases within the box in transit.

If the correlation is correct, here are some of the results:

Again, these are supposed to be re-holdered books with fresh cases, and I have plenty more examples (from the same shipment).

Thanks,

Dave

Edited February 27, 2023 by dmt02908

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

"However, I noticed that with recent case shipments from CGC, they are no longer placing the cardboard over the open part of the box that used to serve as the top of "box within the box.""

In my experience, CGC shipping went from good to okay to bad to worse and, clearly, it  has gotten even worse. I dread what is up (or is that down) next.

[Tatterdamillion]

I feel your plight, that Wolverine 8 is a joke. My last 2 submissions have all been damaged. Some due to poor packing some to mishandling. I hope you get some compensation.

[CGC Mike]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:42 PM, dmt02908 said:

Much appreciated. I am working up a PowerPoint that I can submit on Monday.

Thanks Mike,

Dave

Hi

Send all of the slabs with a problem via the mechanical error option, and we will go over them.

Mike

[High Koality Comics]

It's hit or miss with the thick cardboard  piece on top. The ones without it definitely have more damage/cracks.
I've sent back 39 mechanical errors just this year. Mostly for cracks and shattering. I live in Oregon so I assume the long travel time has something to do with it. A piece of cardboard should be placed between each comic in the box IMO since a lot of it appears to be cracks just from moving back and forth in the box. This is why there is more damage when the thick cardboard piece isn't placed at the top of the box. It allows them to move around too much.
I recently received one back that had the cover completely detached when it arrived and then yesterday I received one in which the case wasn't sealed in any way. Despite issues with shipping and packaging, there still remains some significant issues with quality control. I've had multiple subs of 25 now where every single case has significant scuffing outside it. This isn't something I send back for reholdering and just buff out with Meguiar's but it takes quite a bit of time to do this and would appreciate it if they would slow down when loading the box or stop doing whatever it is that causes this. 
Besides the detached cover comic, the mechanical error turnaround time is what bothers me. I paid to fast track an economy sub of 25 and sent back 13 mostly due to cracked cases. Took less than two weeks to grade and ship which is great but what's the point of paying for fast track if I have to wait another 2-3 months to get half the sub reholdered due to cracks? I of course then have had multiple come back from being fixed for mechanical errors to then have to be sent back again due to a cracked case or other issue that occurred on the way back to me.
In regards to the wavy books in the cases, this was significantly worse last year. The first sub I received like this I had assume reverting after pressing or something and cracked them all out since I didn't feel comfortable selling them in that condition. Multiple subs then arrived after that the same way. It has gotten quite a bit better though since then. I don't know if it's part of the heat process when sealing the case or what that causes it.
I sub around 400 a year so I don't sub massive numbers like some but I think I sub enough to notice trends and issues with books/cases when they occur.
 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Sharon Wang

[High Koality Comics]

I did want to add something positive though. I think CGC's customer service has improved significantly over the last couple years. Not only is it easy to get a hold of someone, but everytime they are very pleasant and I feel they try to address any issues I have in a very timely manner. Also being able to complete ME subs without having to talk to someone first is great. I'd rather not have to call and bother someone due to a cracked case since I'm sure they have better things to do so this helps.

[dmt02908]

On 3/1/2023 at 11:15 AM, Sharon Wang said:

I did want to add something positive though. I think CGC's customer service has improved significantly over the last couple years. Not only is it easy to get a hold of someone, but everytime they are very pleasant and I feel they try to address any issues I have in a very timely manner. Also being able to complete ME subs without having to talk to someone first is great. I'd rather not have to call and bother someone due to a cracked case since I'm sure they have better things to do so this helps.

Thanks so much for your input!

I agree with you. I was working with Jennifer Fuls last year, and she provided outstanding customer service. Everyone else in customer service, before and after, has been friendly. 

One thing I do take issue with, although I understand why this might be the case, is that every time I have asked bigger questions about QC processes and tolerances, I have not received any kind of direct answer. 

That is, when I try to ask more systemic-level issues, customer service contains and compartmentalizes the conversation by focusing on the particular MECHANICAL ERRORS being referenced at that particular time.

Therefore, I feel like my overall concerns have not been addressed even though my aim has always been to make the enterprise sustainable on both sides.

Just so you know, I had a full case of of books that included a high-grade run of the Marvel Comics Presents Weapon X series (72-84) all come in with significant Newton Rings (due, I think, to inner case warping). However, I felt so bad for customer service at that point because I was already sending back 75 books under the MECHNICAL ERRORS designation that I held these back thinking I was making too big a deal about the whole thing. 

Well, when I finally decided to list some of them for sale, I realized that they need to be re-holdered and ended up eating the extra expense of the re-holdering submission.

Thanks,

Dave

Edited March 2, 2023 by dmt02908

[dmt02908]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi

Send all of the slabs with a problem via the mechanical error option, and we will go over them.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Will do. I will ship them out this Friday.

Best, Dave

[CGC Mike]

On 3/2/2023 at 12:11 AM, dmt02908 said:

On 2/27/2023 at 1:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi

Send all of the slabs with a problem via the mechanical error option, and we will go over them.

Mike

Thanks Mike. Will do. I will ship them out this Friday.

Best, Dave

Seems the 2 week window is expiring, write "Approved by Matt Nelson" on the packing slip.  In the future, any mechanical error submissions with the exception of wrong label info, will need to be done within the 2 week time frame.  

[dmt02908]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:51 AM, CGC Mike said:

Seems the 2 week window is expiring, write "Approved by Matt Nelson" on the packing slip.  In the future, any mechanical error submissions with the exception of wrong label info, will need to be done within the 2 week time frame.  

Mike,

I appreciate the heads up! I will write "Approved by Matt Nelson" on the packing slips. 

However, the documentation process has been grueling and time-consuming.

The posts in this thread, alone, have taken many hours, especially with getting the photographic documentation right.

I have now documented thirty five books for the return.

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dmt02908]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:48 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

"However, I noticed that with recent case shipments from CGC, they are no longer placing the cardboard over the open part of the box that used to serve as the top of "box within the box.""

In my experience, CGC shipping went from good to okay to bad to worse and, clearly, it  has gotten even worse. I dread what is up (or is that down) next.

I appreciate your input!

I have been trying to get them to see my particular concerns in a more generalized way.

My goal is to have the graded book business sustainable on all ends. 

Thanks,

Dave

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 3/4/2023 at 6:49 PM, dmt02908 said:

I appreciate your input!

I have been trying to get them to see my particular concerns in a more generalized way.

My goal is to have the graded book business sustainable on all ends. 

Thanks,

Dave

I agree in that although I only slab comic books and magazines for my personal collection it would still be greatly appreciated to ensure that the product I receive from CGC is at a high rate of quality. Of course, some product will not be at that level, but that is what ME is for, not for having to send, I'll write, 50% of what I receive back for correction. Whether that is due to QC problems or shipping damage is irrelevant to me because it still has to be returned to CGC to be fixed.

[dmt02908]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:06 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

I agree in that although I only slab comic books and magazines for my personal collection it would still be greatly appreciated to ensure that the product I receive from CGC is at a high rate of quality. Of course, some product will not be at that level, but that is what ME is for, not for having to send, I'll write, 50% of what I receive back for correction. Whether that is due to QC problems or shipping damage is irrelevant to me because it still has to be returned to CGC to be fixed.

That's right. When the problem is multiplied by dozens of a books a year, it becomes problematic, especially since this is a Certified Guaranty company.

Even returning the cases is less of an inconvenience than having the books exposed to handling when they have to re-holder the books because of MECHNICAL ERRORS.

I feel like some of my books, even if they have not been downgraded in terms of the grade, have been de-graded, if only slightly, in terms of their condition.

Thanks,

Dave

[ExNihilo]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:29 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Stop giving CGC your money.
 

 

Imagine being unsatisfied with 35% of a companies services but continuing to use that company for those same services anyways.  They say "let your wallet speak" but some people continue to muzzle it and whisper "shhhh, don't fight it.  everything's going to be okay."

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 3/7/2023 at 4:25 AM, ExNihilo said:

Imagine being unsatisfied with 35% of a companies services but continuing to use that company for those same services anyways.  They say "let your wallet speak" but some people continue to muzzle it and whisper "shhhh, don't fight it.  everything's going to be okay."

That’s what happens when you’re the only real means of production.