Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[seredynskib]

Quote

and Two, there are a few old time Silver Age fans who've followed my month by month Kirby, Ditko, Lee threads over in the Silver Age who have seen first hand in reading those stories how BAD the Stan Lee stories are when he doesn't have Kirby or Ditko writing for him. His early TTA and TOS's and ST's with Ayers and Heck are just... really lame. Seeing them side by side as they were published, has changed some people's view...

I've read all of the 1960s Marvel comics and wouldn't say that Lee/Kirby/Ditko collaborations always equaled gold and that Lee/others were lame. I enjoyed reading Lee/Romita, Lee/Heck, Lee/Everett & Lee/Lieber collaborations.

This is just my humble opinion, but the best Silver Age Marvel books are (in this order): the Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Tales of Suspense.

The worst are: The Incredible Hulk and The X-Men. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby worked together on The Incredible Hulk and it only produced 6 issues because of poor sales. X-Men went 19 issues before Roy Thomas took over.

The rest of the titles (TTA,JIM,DD,ST,SgtFury,etc.) were all decent.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:28 PM, seredynskib said:

I've read all of the 1960s Marvel comics and wouldn't say that Lee/Kirby/Ditko collaborations always equaled gold and that Lee/others were lame. I enjoyed reading Lee/Romita, Lee/Heck, Lee/Everett & Lee/Lieber collaborations.

This is just my humble opinion, but the best Silver Age Marvel books are (in this order): the Fantastic Four, Amazing Spider-Man, the Avengers, and Tales of Suspense.

The worst are: The Incredible Hulk and The X-Men. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby worked together on The Incredible Hulk and it only produced 6 issues because of poor sales. X-Men went 19 issues before Roy Thomas took over.

The rest of the titles (TTA,JIM,DD,ST,SgtFury,etc.) were all decent.

It's all subjective...

1963 is where we're at, so Romita isn't even around yet. He hasn't done anything with Everett yet. The stories we've read in 1963 that aren't with Kirby or Ditko, contrast pretty harshly. Kirby is still doing the Avengers. 

I'm sure you're aware of why the Incredible Hulk series was so bad and X-Men is still only on issue #3. Daredevil hasn't even started. 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Without Stan....Marvel would have been DC

’nuff said

[comicwiz]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:57 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Without Stan....Marvel would have been DC

’nuff said

Without Kirby, there would be no Marvel. And more crying rivers named Stan.

[lordbyroncomics]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:32 PM, comicwiz said:

Without Kirby, there would be no Marvel. And more crying rivers named Stan.

This. There's literally no Marvel without Kirby going back. As much as I genuinely like Patsy Walker, etc., Marvel would have continued with genre stuff if Kirby wasn't there to rehash his Challengers of the Unknown, Thor, mutation ideas that he had been doing throughout the fifties. 

Kirby generated the bulk of all of the concepts, characters, storytelling. Try looking at the Strange Tales starring the Torch when Lee relied on MR. Ayers to generate and plot things. Why are the stories so vastly different than the stories that Jack is drawing? There you are.

 

Never forget: one guy goes off to create the FOURTH WORLD. One guy goes off to "create" NHL Hockey Heroes that literally bankrupted a company.

Jim Shooter said in his Comic Book Historians interview that he plotted one of Stan's 60s' SILVER SURFER issues. 

Roy Thomas said he ghost wrote Stan's Spider-Man strip for over twenty years- Salicrup ghost wrote it before that- Shooter ghost wrote it before that.

Alan Kupperberg said Danny Fingeroth ghost wrote Ravage 2099.

Ed Piskor said someone ghost wrote all of Stan Lee's introductions to your beloved Marvel Masterworks collections. Sorry frantic ones.

 

I include all that just to stress- that if someone is the "Shakespeare" of comics and a natural idea generator, a natural story man, a CREATOR...

... why did he need so much help? 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/21/2023 at 8:10 PM, lordbyroncomics said:

This. There's literally no Marvel without Kirby going back. As much as I genuinely like Patsy Walker, etc., Marvel would have continued with genre stuff if Kirby wasn't there to rehash his Challengers of the Unknown, Thor, mutation ideas that he had been doing throughout the fifties. 

Kirby generated the bulk of all of the concepts, characters, storytelling. Try looking at the Strange Tales starring the Torch when Lee relied on MR. Ayers to generate and plot things. Why are the stories so vastly different than the stories that Jack is drawing? There you are.

 

Never forget: one guy goes off to create the FOURTH WORLD. One guy goes off to "create" NHL Hockey Heroes that literally bankrupted a company.

Jim Shooter said in his Comic Book Historians interview that he plotted one of Stan's 60s' SILVER SURFER issues. 

Roy Thomas said he ghost wrote Stan's Spider-Man strip for over twenty years- Salicrup ghost wrote it before that- Shooter ghost wrote it before that.

Alan Kupperberg said Danny Fingeroth ghost wrote Ravage 2099.

Ed Piskor said someone ghost wrote all of Stan Lee's introductions to your beloved Marvel Masterworks collections. Sorry frantic ones.

 

I include all that just to stress- that if someone is the "Shakespeare" of comics and a natural idea generator, a natural story man, a CREATOR...

... why did he need so much help? 

Yep.

[ymisbatg]

It is just sad when great ones do not realize the magic they have together (see Lakers: Shaq & Kobe).  But it seems the pace of work at Marvel at that time was unsustainable.  

[jimjum12]

[Prince Namor]

On 6/22/2023 at 5:23 AM, ymisbatg said:

It is just sad when great ones do not realize the magic they have together (see Lakers: Shaq & Kobe).  But it seems the pace of work at Marvel at that time was unsustainable.  

Shaq & Kobe broke up over ego.

Kirby, Ditko, Wood... they all left because Stan was taking credit and pay for work he wasn't doing. 

Bob Kane took credit for work he didn't do and he's been vilified universally. 

Well Bob Kane PAID people for the credit he stole.

Imagine working with someone and many times doing 90% of the work... but you get credit for only 50% of the work and paid for only 50% of the work. 

You'd get tired of that.

And in the creative process, sitting down with a blank piece of paper by yourself is the hardest part of the task.

It doesn't matter how 'magical' people think your work is... if your part of the process is MINIMIZED to benefit the other person, creatively and FINANCIALLY... you're just not going to put up with that.

[Ken Aldred]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:06 PM, Prince Namor said:

No one makes these arguments for Bob Kane.

I think there’s an understanding that the situation is basically very similar for him, if more limited.

One major character, not so many at once, and no complex about being the saviour of a company.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[Prince Namor]

On 6/21/2023 at 2:24 AM, jimjum12 said:

Even though this is all my opinion, if we "follow the money" and analyze back issue prices, it would seem I am not alone in holding Stan AND Jack, or Stan AND Steve, in a higher regard.... you know, the old "sum of the parts..." thing. 

So Jack Kirby and Joe Simon were a better team than Stan and Jack because Captain America Comics #1 can sell for more than FF#1?

Not sure I follow that logic...

Though I do follow the logic that... here on the CGC boards, where money is everything and art is very much a second place to commerce, the Marvel Zombie's rule, because they will spend to relive the childhood memories of Stan 'the Man', who convinced them to cut out Marvel value Stamps and ruin all of those comics, just so that... well, Marvel never DID give us anything for those stamps did they? Stan broke that promise. But dealers LOVE Stan Lee, because those Zombies buy, buy, buy. 

Is that what makes a great comic?

 

But it did get me thinking of sales in general...

Did any of the Marvel Silver Age work ever sell a million copies? Did any of it ever end up as a Top Ten seller of it's time?

No.*

Kirby did that numerous times in his career. Stan Lee: ZERO.

Captain America Comics - over a million copies... Boy Commandos - over a million copies... Young Romance #1 sold 92% of it's initial print run (unheard of) and as a monthly title hit TWO million copies sold...

Throughout that time, Stan Lee never had anything near as popular as that. In fact he wrote in a letter to King Publications in the mid-50's, (about Millie the Model, another book he took credit for that he didn't create) while trying to secure a spot for a Newspaper Strip idea, “While print orders may vary and are somewhat correct, we can safely say that each issue sells in excess of a quarter of a million copies." (Alter Ego #150 - January 2018)

That's 250,000 vs Kirby's One to Two MILLION. 

And AFTER the Silver Age...

Stan created nothing of note. In fact, everyone seemingly did even MORE of his work for him, ghost writing almost everything he did.

Regardless of what anyone's 'opinion' is of Kirby's Fourth World, it was a hugely ambitious undertaking that only someone with a vast imagination and artistic talent could even envision. 

What else was there like it? Who else created a whole New Universe of characters that STILL are in use today?

In the first YEAR he was gone from Marvel, Kirby gave us the New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle (while doing Jimmy Olsen) and even after DC's small mindedness couldn't grasp the concept of what he was doing, he THEN gave us Kamandi and the Demon. 

New Gods was cancelled after 11 issues - not because of sales - it was middle of the pack according to Paul Levitz (and certainly affected by affidavit fraud, like Conan #1, Adams' Green Lantern, etc.)... imagine if the FF had been cancelled after 11 issues - it would nowhere near be remembered as it is today.

Yet New Gods has been reprinted in 1984, in 1998, 2007, 2011, 2017, 2018... its lasting appeal and impact goes far beyond anything new that Lee did from 1970 on. It is READ today by fans. Not just bought as a back issue for 'investment' purposes, it is bought and READ as a story.

To me, that gives it even greater value.

 

Now the Fantastic Four of the Silver Age... decent sales, but nothing spectacular.

The FF was never a GREAT seller in the Silver Age, great for MARVEL of course, but it's best showing wasn't even during its most acclaimed issues - in 1969 it finished #12 in sales at around 340,000 - Lois Lane almost hit 400,000 that year. Archie Comics and Superman were selling half a million copies a month.

And that was the FF's best year in the Silver Age...

(It's first statement of ownership after Kirby left, while Lee was still writing, put it at 285,000 copies, a drop of 55,000 copies a month (or 660,000 for the year...). Superman was at 421,000 in 1971.

So sales... back issue sales... what makes a great comic? 

It's all subjective. 

 

*There were books that hit a Million in the 60's - Two of them - Uncle Scrooge, and Walt Disney's Comics & Stories in 1960. And of course, Mad Magazine, which hit it every year of the 60's, increasing each year until it hit 1.88 Million in 1969.

Superman regularly broke 3/4 of Million, Batman almost hit 900,000 in 1966 and over 800,000 in 1967 thanks to the TV Show...

Marvel was never anywhere NEAR those numbers in the Silver Age. Its biggest seller for the decade was Amazing Spider-man at 372,000 in 1969. That was it BIGGEST of the decade. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:03 AM, Ken Aldred said:

I think there’s an understanding that the situation is basically very similar for him, if more limited.

One major character, not so many at once, and no complex about being the saviour of a company.

For sure.

And yet, that anger at Kane is razor focused.

At Lee, not so much. 

[Prince Namor]

That pompous blow-hard Jim Steranko brags about 'person_without_enough_empathy-slapping' Bob Kane... this story cracks me up, as it... could just as easily be about Stan!

from Steranko's Twitter:

"I'd hadn't encountered Kane in my travels, but at one rockin' SDCC, an associate asked me if I wanted to meet him, and walked me into a hallway. There he was, in a small group of people, wearing patent-leather shoes--and an ASCOT, like he was Vitamin f******g Flintheart in a MR. Tracy cartoon. For years, I'd heard how he'd taken credit for Bill Finger's contributions (in addition to half his pay)..."

"...and other despicable tales from his associates..."

"...But nothing aces an in-person encounter. We were introduced and Kane began talking about my Batman chapter in the HISTORY OF COMICS, which treated him--and everyone else--very respectfully. He felt I credited Robinson & Finger (both of whom I knew intimately) too much. Kane (aka Kahn) was beyond pretentious, an intolerable as pompous as they come. I bit my tongue while he regaled us with his many achievements."

"...The group was waiting for an elevator, which they stepped into when the door opened. Our conversation ended, but not before he said: "See you later, Jim, baby," and cuffed me across the face--like some rat-pack street gesture he'd seen in some cheap flick. The doors closed... "

(Well that's one thing Stan would've never did!)

"...That night, I couldn't sleep and the next morning began combing the halls for his Bat Majesty. Around noon, I found him. In another group, which I walked into. "Good to see you, Bob, baby!" I said, then person_without_enough_empathy-slapped him across the face."

"But this time, there was no elevator door closing between us. I stood there for about 15 seconds, waiting. He did nothing. I turned and left. But I regret it now. I regret that he didn't do anything about it, even though he was at least a head taller than me. I wouldn't have minded bleeding at all for one more opportunity to give Kane the kind of Bat Lesson that Finger, Robinson, Sprang and others only dreamed of."

(Full disclosure - I got into it with Steranko on his 'Twitter' group posting, over... well, Stan Lee. As I presented him with facts, he told me the usual silly line, "You weren't there, I (he) was!" And I replied, "you weren't there in 1962"... ha ha... that didn't go over so well. 

 

[Prince Namor]

Anyway, in rehashing this, the part were Steranko wrote, "We were introduced and Kane began talking about my Batman chapter in the HISTORY OF COMICS, which treated him--and everyone else--very respectfully. He felt I credited Robinson & Finger (both of whom I knew intimately) too much."

That reminded me of a Stan Lee story...

Don Thompson of (CBG fame) had written in 'All in Color for a Dime' how Steve Ditko was the creator of Spider-man, and Stan took big umbrage with it. He contacted Don and told him HE was the SOLE CREATOR of Spider-man. And Don, being Don wrote the following in his New Fangles #42 (Dec, 1970)... and Stan, being Stan, did the following in the credits of ASM #100:

It's not a 'physical' b---h slap by Stan, but rather a literary one. 

[jimjum12]

On 6/22/2023 at 8:04 AM, Prince Namor said:

because they will spend to relive the childhood memories of Stan 'the Man'

 

Journalist Robin Green, who succeeded Steinberg at Marvel in 1968, wrote in Rolling Stone:

It was three years ago that I went to work at Marvel Comics. I replaced Flo, whose place I really couldn't take. Fabulous Flo Steinberg, as she was known to her public, was as much an institution in Marvel's Second Golden Age as Editor Stan (The Man) Lee himself. She joined Marvel just after Stan had revolutionized the comic industry by giving his characters dimension, character, and personality, and just as Marvel was catching on big.^[15]

 

Marvel's only staffers at that time were Lee and Steinberg herself, with the rest of the work handled freelance.^[9] De facto production manager Sol Brodsky "would come in and set up an extra little drawing board where he would do the paste-ups and mechanicals for the ads," Steinberg said.^[10] She recalled that the "first real Bullpen" — the roomful of artists at drawing boards making corrections, preparing art for printing, and, as envisioned later within Marvel's letter pages and "Bullpen Bulletins", a mythologized clubhouse in which the likes of Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, Don Heck and others would be found kibitzing — was created when Marvel moved downtown a few buildings from 655 Madison Avenue to 635 Madison Avenue. "Stan finally had his own office. There was a big space with windows where I was, and Sol Brodsky, now on staff, had his own desk".^[10] She said that at the time, "[Y]ou were lucky to make $60 a week starting ... and Stan offered me $65, which was a big incentive to sign on!".^[11]

Edited June 22, 2023 by jimjum12

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Kirby and Ditko were the main men. We never realized it because we were kids and kept seeing Stan Lee presents plastered on every comic book. 

Nuff Said. 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Btw met Stan Lee twice in his prime. Very friendly man and could see why he got to the top, but when we opened those books it was the artists that took us to another level, not the dialogue. 

 

[ymisbatg]

Does this really matter though (who created what) because everyone involved was working for the parent company (Marvel) at the time?  Doesn't the company receive profits from sales, or do the writers/publisher/artists receive a commission based on sales?  

[mrc]

On 6/22/2023 at 9:53 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Btw met Stan Lee twice in his prime. Very friendly man and could see why he got to the top, but when we opened those books it was the artists that took us to another level, not the dialogue. 

 

Er, no. It was both for me. I would always be looking forward to the next ish!!  Truth be told, back in the day I got a bit bored with Kirby's artwork after a while and, there were soo many other great artists to enjoy.

Edited June 23, 2023 by mrc
edit

[comicwiz]

Thomas hitched his wagon to the Lee history of the MCU, claiming their rights and billing himself as a renowned comics historian who was there and would know better than anyone who wasn't. He continued the pro-Lee narrative with contributions for Taschen and the Folio Society. I barely saw mention of him with the archival footage when he arrived at Marvel, but didn't see the end credits mention him having any direct involvement.

How remarkably prescient Kirby's Funky Flashman was about the outcome of Lee's legacy. Funky throwing Houseroy at the attackers and jumping out the window while the home he inherited explodes is a pastiche bringing to life a documentary of an amoral, mean-spirited, phony capitalist with his toupee and fake beard walking away for another day with undeserved exclusive creator credit.

Edited June 22, 2023 by comicwiz