Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:22 AM, Zonker said:

Instead, I think it possible to acknowledge what Kirby and Ditko brought to the party while still giving Stan Lee a bit of a break.  He grew up in a time where the whole business of who created what was much less of a concern than meeting the deadlines however possible to get the books out. 

Stan actually used the largest "credit box" I ever saw anywhere. It took up a quarter of the splash sometimes. He always seemed to make sure everybody got noticed. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... I'm watching the documentary right now... I must say, I'm enjoying it. It's a well done effort for a doc. It IS definitely all about Stan.

[buttock]

On 6/28/2023 at 4:01 PM, lordbyroncomics said:

To clarify, Kirby went back a couple years before 1961. 1961 is just when the Fantastic Four launches.

I bring that up also because the noted historian Dr. Michael Vassalo, who has intensely researched the day to day goings of Atlas/Marvel and gone through every existing report, log, voucher, etc. made an incredible discovery a couple years ago: the week that Kirby goes back in to Marvel coincides with the week after Joe Manleey tragically died.

So it's completely valid that Kirby would have found Stan a little weepy and teary-eyed- his friend and collaborator was just killed in a horrific subway accident. This all lined up and is documented (there are so many time stamped documents from all of Goodman's companies it's amazing that fans don't know about them and how they help prove Kirby's case while proving nothing for Stan's), it's just the kind of history and research you don't find in "Son of Origins" or Wizard Magazine.

  

On 6/28/2023 at 5:22 PM, lordbyroncomics said:

It isn't a coincidence whatsoever once you realize that Kirby wouldn't "just happen to show up". Stan called him.

The vouchers and scheduling sheets (much of which have survived, frantic ones! Which paint a different trajectory than the one you clutch onto) which have been closely documented and archived by Dr. Vassallo, show that Kirby's first story back is on the schedule literally almost the following week after Maneely's death. Maneely dying was not going to make Goodman stop the presses.

Stan Goldberg reiterated Kirby's almost immediate arrival at a live event at the Society of Illustrators ("Jack showed up very shortly thereafter, and thank goodness") and- hey, Shad... maybe Dr. Vassallo doesn't know what he's talking about with his research. It's possible! But, if so, it's very odd that Marvel themselves commission him to not only write most of the introductions for their Atlas Age Masterwork Editions but *also* have him in charge of selection and editing and packaging the upcoming Atlas Era collections from Fantagraphics! Maybe they're hiring this guy for years now because he really IS the most certified scholar and historian of early Marvel?? Gosh. Just a coincidence. 

I understand this is all psychologically troubling for someone who both needs to preserve their youthful nostalgia in old age and as someone who likely is selling those exclusive Stan signed books for triple the price! But fear not, pilgrim- the Merry Marvel Marching Society continues onward! Facts and literal documented evidence be damned! Dare... dare I say it?? (in a voice choked with emotion): Excelsior! 

  

On 6/28/2023 at 4:12 PM, shadroch said:

Jack just happened to show up the week after Manleey died.  Just a coincidence. 

 

Joe Maneely died in June 1958, Kirby returned to Marvel in late 1956.  

Edited June 29, 2023 by buttock

[Ken Aldred]

I’ve always liked Kirby’s Bronze Age work at Marvel and DC. Shouty, over-the-top, energetic, unsubtle and often extremely metal-sounding.

Entertaining, if somewhat incoherent at times compared to his earlier comics with Lee.

For me, nicely-contrasting styles.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Ken Aldred

[shadroch]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:35 AM, Ken Aldred said:

I’ve always liked Kirby’s Bronze Age work at Marvel and DC. Shouty, over-the-top, energetic, unsubtle and often extremely metal-sounding.

Entertaining, if somewhat incoherent at times compared to his earlier comics with Lee.

For me, nicely-contrasting styles.

It's why Baskin Robbins sells more than one kind of ice cream. I may eventually forgive Jack for what he did with Captain America in 1976 but it's taking a long long time.  From the Secret Empire to Madbombs in not much more than a year.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:31 PM, Jeffro. said:

It's an option and one that far too many people on this planet can't seem to grasp. Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should. I don't mean you specifically, I mean a figurative "you"

I think this entire world would be a lot better off if 75% of the people just shut the eff up. 

The greatest aspect of social media is that it gave everyone a platform for voice to be heard.

The worst aspect of social media is that we now have to hear those vioces.

Edited June 29, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:22 AM, Zonker said:

(In fact, Stan says on p 180 "This very book...is possibly the closest I'll come to writing that great American novel.")

Yeah, it's funny, even his wife Joan managed to write a novel.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:58 AM, buttock said:

  Joe Maneely died in June 1958, Kirby returned to Marvel in late 1956.  

Kirby did some work for Marvel in 1956. He did almost no work for them in 1957. That's not really 'returning'.

He fully returned less than a month after Maneely died and as his welcome at DC was ending.

[Prince Namor]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:21 PM, MrBedrock said:

This is not true. Without Kirby Marvel might have been horrible, but it would have been around. Without Lee it wouldn't have been around.

Nothing prior or afterwards holds that up. 

Marvel was dying. Stan's contribution was still Western genre stories and Dumb Blonde comics. He hadn't had ANY personal success as a writer in his 20 years in the business. 

Goodman was going to close up that part of his publishing. 

Kirby brought what he'd ALWAYS done for his 20 years in the business. New Ideas. Books that sell. 

Stan may've had his part in it, but without Kirby's ideas to kickstart it... nothing would've happened.

[buttock]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:00 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby did some work for Marvel in 1956. He did almost no work for them in 1957. That's not really 'returning'.

He fully returned less than a month after Maneely died and as his welcome at DC was ending.

He did 21 stories in 1956-7, 14 of which were in 1957.  That's not really 'almost no'.

Stretching it to early 1958 he did war, sci-fi/fantasy, western, thriller/hero, and romance.  

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:27 AM, jimjum12 said:

This may or may not be true, as I haven't seen any phone records, but I do know that Mort Weissinger(DC's big kahuna) did not care for Kirby and Jack wasn't making much of a living there. 

Well fortunately for us, their ARE records that show how much work he was doing and I show that, just before he came back to Marvel he did almost 300 pages for DC in 1958, and that was in a year where Schiff was trying to slow him down. And considering DC was paying more than twice as much as Marvel at the time - he was managing just fine. 

On 6/29/2023 at 3:27 AM, jimjum12 said:

It probably wouldn't have been long before Jack was either driving a taxi or working for Charlton ... and the Taxi would have probably have paid better.

See, I thought you were more knowledgable about this history, jimjim. Part way through 1959, Kirby had a chance to work with Joe Simon over at Archie Comics, as they were deciding to put THEIR comic book heroes back together. He worked on a few books, the Double Life of Private Strong #1 and 2, The Fly #1 and 2, but decided he didn't want to do that. 

He COULD have. Or he could've kept working for Harvey Comics, where he was freelancing at the time. 

(The Adventures of the Fly outsold any of Marvel's books in 1959...) 

On 6/29/2023 at 3:27 AM, jimjum12 said:

I also notice a curious absence of information in this "debate" about Kirby's failed publishing ventures. 

Kirby's? Mainline was JOE'S baby, he was the business guy. And for Jack, Skymasters lasted what, 3 years? That's not a failure. 

On 6/29/2023 at 3:27 AM, jimjum12 said:

... Kirby was in perpetual litigation with Marvel trying to invalidate his "work for hire" contract over the last couple decades of his life, what else is he going to say other than he did it all ?

Jack Kirby never sued Marvel . EVER. Let's get our facts straight. 

Jim Shooter liked to SAY he did. But he didn't. EVER. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:23 PM, buttock said:

He did 21 stories in 1956-7, 14 of which were in 1957.  That's not really 'almost no'.

Stretching it to early 1958 he did war, sci-fi/fantasy, western, thriller/hero, and romance.  

Not sure what you're going by but... I don't use the cover date, but the actual date a book is released. 

Something that comes out in February 1957, is actually a comic that was released in December of 1956 - which means it was work that was actually done in September/October of 1956.

What he actually DID for 1957 was:

19 pages of Yellow Claw #4 (which he also wrote)

5 page story in Two Gun Western #12, which actually looks to be an inventory story by the job number

19 pages of Black Rider #1, which is most definitely an inventory story. 

That's what's shown in GCD...

 

[buttock]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:34 AM, Prince Namor said:

Not sure what you're going by but... I don't use the cover date, but the actual date a book is released. 

Something that comes out in February 1957, is actually a comic that was released in December of 1956 - which means it was work that was actually done in September/October of 1956.

What he actually DID for 1957 was:

19 pages of Yellow Claw #4 (which he also wrote)

5 page story in Two Gun Western #12, which actually looks to be an inventory story by the job number

19 pages of Black Rider #1, which is most definitely an inventory story. 

That's what's shown in GCD...

 

If you continue to narrow down the date range arbitrarily, then yes, the number of stories will also go down.  My point was that he returned in 1956 and from that time until Maneely's death he did a lot of work.  But from his RETURN (there's no other word for it) in 1956, he did a story in Battleground 14, Astonishing 56, Strange Tales of the Unusual 7, Quick Trigger Western 16, Two Gun Western 12, My Own Romance 62, Gunsmoke Western 47, and all of the stories in Yellow Claw 2, 3, & 4, and Black Rider Returns where he was essentially assigned characters.  So he's got 22 stories spread out over the 18 or so months preceding Joe Maneely's death after having not done anything for the preceding 15 years, but you're going to say that this body of work doesn't count as a return until 1 month later?  Maybe there was some refinement of the contract for exclusivity or something that you could say counts as an official welcome or something (I don't know, just spitballing).  But to say that he didn't return in 1956 is just wrong.    

[Prince Namor]

In 20 years... Stan Lee never created much of anything. From 1940 to 1960...

Not much of anything to show.

Now think about this... when Jack decided he didn't want to create anything for Stan and just concentrate on FF, Thor, Cap and Nick Fury... where did Stan's ideas go?

This was in 1965. 

What titles did Stan create from 1965 on? What new characters did he bring out in their own title?

Captain Marvel in 1968 (to preserve trademark - and it never went anywhere in that form)

Kirby was still coming up with some amazing ideas in the books he focused on - Galactus, Silver Surfer, Black Panther, Inhumans, The High Evolutionary, Ego the Living Planet, Him.. and THEN, when Kirby decided to shield ALL his ideas from Marvel... what did Stan come up with?

Nothing.

In July of 1970, for the first time in almost a decade, Marvel didn't have a Kirby led FF or Thor issue to publish, and how did the 20th Century Shakespeare respond?

71 of Marvel's remaining 144 titles for 1970 would feature 50 to 100% REPRINT material. (32 of those 71 were Kirby reprints)

Stan's writing contribution?

Harvey #1.

He. Had. Nothing. 

Jack Kirby went a built a whole new UNIVERSE of characters. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:45 PM, buttock said:

If you continue to narrow down the date range arbitrarily, then yes, the number of stories will also go down.  My point was that he returned in 1956 and from that time until Maneely's death he did a lot of work.  But from his RETURN (there's no other word for it) in 1956, he did a story in Battleground 14, Astonishing 56, Strange Tales of the Unusual 7, Quick Trigger Western 16, Two Gun Western 12, My Own Romance 62, Gunsmoke Western 47, and all of the stories in Yellow Claw 2, 3, & 4, and Black Rider Returns where he was essentially assigned characters.  So he's got 22 stories spread out over the 18 or so months preceding Joe Maneely's death after having not done anything for the preceding 15 years, but you're going to say that this body of work doesn't count as a return until 1 month later?  Maybe there was some refinement of the contract for exclusivity or something that you could say counts as an official welcome or something (I don't know, just spitballing).  But to say that he didn't return in 1956 is just wrong.    

It's not narrowing down the date range, it's just assigning it correctly. 

But yeah, he returned to do some freelance work in 1956. Saying he returned makes it sound like a commitment, and he definitely wasn't doing that. 

You have to remember, Marvel was teetering. They were bad shape. Maneely himself was going to DC for freelance work. No one was AT Marvel - they were downsizing like crazy. Kirby did the vast majority of his work for DC Comics in 1957 and 1958, as well as freelance work at Harvey, Prize, and then even Archie Comics.

In other words, in 1956 Kirby returned to Marvel.

And in 1956, Kirby returned to DC.

While continuing to work for Harvey and Prize.

And in 1959 he returned to Archie.  

Edited June 29, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 9:32 AM, jimjum12 said:

Stan actually used the largest "credit box" I ever saw anywhere. It took up a quarter of the splash sometimes. He always seemed to make sure everybody got noticed. he got paid for the work he was making the artists do.

FTFY

[Aman619]

On 6/29/2023 at 6:13 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

To anyone reading this: I don't know how I can be more articulate about this, but I will stress this one more time:

- I believe that Stan Lee wrongfully gets more credit than he is warranted.

I have stated Stan was talented and obviously crucial... but I believe the evidence exists that shows he was not the sole creator.

That's it. That's the entire argument. Stan is not the sole creator.

Saying that constitutes "character assassination"- digest that a bit.

Statements by Jack supporters like yours above always -- at some point -- reverse course and allow a little praise for Stan. As you no doubt are aware know, the struggle by fans to get justice for Jack and Steve has been heavily negative against Stan. It's been such a hopeless journey to get any traction for so long its always colored by attacks on Stans contributions. Even asking Stan fans to admit that Stan lied or changed his tune about it is couched as a gotcha!  Too many Jack acolytes take his angry Comics Journal interview as gospel, that Stan did "nothing!"

You dont have to attack Stan to win your case, or belittle his contributions or his creativity or storytelling skills.  These guys scrounged together the early stories... they caught on... soon later the Herald Tribune came a calling for an interview. Jack's a head down worker, not a salesman like Stan... the they turned from Stan to question Jack, he stumbled inarticulately.)  From then on it the media knew who to turn to, It was the Stan show any time anybody wanted to ask Marvel "how do you do it"? Thats why its Stan in all these media clips from the 60s.  And I hope you agree he did a great job at it!?   Having a sole creator running things was the story, and it caught on. etc etc.

This happens all the time in all industries.  Ideas happen and the good ones take a life of their own and those in the room grab ahold and ride it as best they can. Jack and Steve did a lot more of the creating than the credits showed or was talked about. Stan should have taken a Dialogue By credit not a Written By credit on all the stories.  How about Packaged By?  Produced by?  Just dont try to push Stan out of the room. He held the reins that put it all together, by utilizing his artists talents and creativity and as the face to the fans.  And NONE OF THEM ended up owning ANY of it!  Stans later wealth came from his relationship to the fans etc, he was deemed necessary to maintain Marvel in the public's eye to the tune of a mil a year.  It was money well spent.  Avi and Ike initially wanted to let Stan go but soon relented with his 1M deal. 

Sure they could have spread it around more to Jack and Steve.. dont big multi national corporations do that for employees (let alone freelancers) that have no contracts or legal rights?  Nope. And tiny Goodman sized businesses dont either.  So, how about a little concern for poor Stans reputation going forward.  It can only go down and Jack and to a lesser degree Steve rise

[Dr. Haydn]

"Stan actually used the largest "credit box" I ever saw anywhere. It took up a quarter of the splash sometimes. He always seemed to make sure everybody got noticed."

Yes, they were pretty large. Question is: is the information in them accurate or misleading?

[Aman619]

I was explaining all this to a non comic literate friend.  It required so much detail and he did this and they did that, that I finally just summed it up like in Liberty Vallance. 

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:23 PM, Prince Namor said:

(The Adventures of the Fly outsold any of Marvel's books in 1959...) 

What was Marvel publishing in 59? They were on a muzzle with distribution. ... if Archie was such an opportunity, why did he leave ? Don't be pedantic, Chuck. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[comicwiz]

Maybe memories aren't great, especially for those harping on how Kirby fared when he left Marvel. How about when Stan Lee left Marvel to start a company that lasted only 2 years? Anyone recall "7th Portal?" I was working for an IT consulting company at the time, one of the guys I worked with was a voice actor for the Spider-Man animated series in the late 60's. His last name was also Lee. At the time, I remember seeing the heavy marketing/advertising around Stan Lee Media's (SLM) 'webisodes.' 165-man animation production studio based in  LA that after two years went bankrupt, with three SLM people being indicted for allegedly defrauding the business in a cheque kiting scam. The next time you think Kirby's work was only good because of Stan, remember the above mentioned.

Edited June 30, 2023 by comicwiz