FF # 1 CGC 8.0 and a nice run from # 2-16 on ebay...

[KingOfRulers]

Sounds like label chaser mischief to me

[glasgap]

The white covers I would like as bright as possible. When I get back into buying Marvels again FF#1 and Daredevil#1 need to be as white as I can possibly find.

 

Well, on a white cover book like FF 1.......

 

At the time of printing, was the Fantastic Four 1 cover as pure white as the Daredevil 1 cover - or was it a "pinky white". I have never seen any FF1 with a white cover but most Daredevil 1 covers I have seen have been white or near white (never "pinky white").

 

Alan (UK)

[uclapeterg]

 

I purchased this book because it had the whitest cover I have seen.

[Aman619]

I too wonder about the page quality "fetish". For instance what if the book were very scarce in grade, say like the Avengers #1 in 9.4 that was up on Pedigree a while back. There are only a handful of copies in that grade or better. Yet the book was shunned. I understand asking 30K was too much and may have been the ultimate cause for rejection.

 

But wasnt it the cream pages too? So, is there a certain price relative to OW books that such a scarce CR/OW book SHOULD sell for? And even if you add the better PQ 9.2s into consideration, wouldnt the 9.4 CR still be better than many of the 9.2s?

 

I also tend to shun CR books... but as a consumer who recognizes that many others do too. But, I agree with tehstatement above that lets face it, the book is staying in a collection unread if not in the slab ---- so whats the big deal? Arent structural issues far more important? Unless we are talking brittle pages that is... Ive got Cream raw books, and thay dont look too dark to me. Whites are of course sweeter looking, but, theres such a gulf between the two that baffles me.

[Aman619]

 

I purchased this book because it had the whitest cover I have seen.

 

From a printing perspective, I cant think of any logical reason why one white cover would be pinker than another - -- unless they were manufatured differently by different suppliers with say different chemicals, one of which tended to cause a shift to redder over time. But I dont know.

 

A white cover is UNPRINTED paper ... the inks have nothing to do with any color shifts after printing (unless an interior ad bleeds thru.) So they should only vary in yellowness by age, not pinkness.

[uclapeterg]

That response wasn't directed at me, was it? I agree with everything you are saying about this topic.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I too wonder about the page quality "fetish". For instance what if the book were very scarce in grade, say like the Avengers #1 in 9.4 that was up on Pedigree a while back. There are only a handful of copies in that grade or better. Yet the book was shunned. I understand asking 30K was too much and may have been the ultimate cause for rejection.

 

The owner (rube11) listed it last night in the Marketplace for $17k if you're interested.

[Aman619]

I too wonder about the page quality "fetish". For instance what if the book were very scarce in grade, say like the Avengers #1 in 9.4 that was up on Pedigree a while back. There are only a handful of copies in that grade or better. Yet the book was shunned. I understand asking 30K was too much and may have been the ultimate cause for rejection.

 

The owner (rube11) listed it last night in the Marketplace for $17k if you're interested.

 

is that the same copy? okay, so maybe Ill get the answer to my question! 13K "discount' OFF the original list price OUGHTTA get a checkboojk out, right? Unless, the answer just is that Cream pages do not sell! And I just dont see that mindset. Before CGC there were three kinds of page quality: White (which demanded a premium) Brittle which were shunned; and everything else. Sure Overstreet had a handy dandy guage for measuing page quality, but how many people actually used it... and, used it to determine a sales price??

 

If we as a group are beginning to move beyond CGC and all its accoutrements (sp) in grading etc. . might we not also back away from slavish attention to CGCs page quaLITY DESIGNATIONS TOO?

[Aman619]

That response wasn't directed at me, was it? I agree with everything you are saying about this topic.

 

NAH. I WAS JUST QUOTING THE SCAN OF FF1 sorry caps lock..

[namisgr]

I'm not the same kind of collector as you, Aman. For one thing, I care a great deal about page quality, even for purchases of encapsulated books. If you don't, then ask yourself why you'd avoid buying a restored encapsulated book - in its plastic tomb, you can't see those teeny dots of color touch, now can you? It's simply knowing that they are there, without even being able to actually see them, that changes the desirability of the book.

 

For another, I always cared a great deal about page quality, even before the advent of CGC. Indeed, the "eye appeal" of a raw book in the pre-CGC days was influenced by the whiteness of the interior covers and pages. I remember when a new pedigree would be identified, a major factor contributing to its success in the marketplace would be the overall page quality of the collection. To wit: the Massachusetts and White Mountain books were very well received in the marketplace at prices well above guide, and were recognized for their generally exceptional page quality. The Mohawk Valley books, on the other hand, had a number of DC offerings with tanning halos on the interior covers and cream to off-white pages, which turned a number of collectors off of the books.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I'm not the same kind of collector as you, Aman. For one thing, I care a great deal about page quality, even for purchases of encapsulated books. If you don't, then ask yourself why you'd avoid buying a restored encapsulated book - in its plastic tomb, you can't see those teeny dots of color touch, now can you? It's simply knowing that they are there, without even being able to actually see them, that changes the desirability of the book.

 

For another, I always cared a great deal about page quality, even before the advent of CGC. Indeed, the "eye appeal" of a raw book in the pre-CGC days was influenced by the whiteness of the interior covers and pages. I remember when a new pedigree would be identified, a major factor contributing to its success in the marketplace would be the overall page quality of the collection. To wit: the Massachusetts and White Mountain books were very well received in the marketplace at prices well above guide, and were recognized for their generally exceptional page quality. The Mohawk Valley books, on the other hand, had a number of DC offerings with tanning halos on the interior covers and cream to off-white pages, which turned a number of collectors off of the books.

 

I think the two of you represent well the two camps re: the page quality issue.

 

Personally, I used to be a lot like you Bob, until I realized that CGC is so incredibly inconsistent with how they determine page quality as to make the page designation unreliable in its accuracy. I've owned pedigree books with OW/W pages and a tanning halo on the front cover. I've submitted books from the same original owner collection (subsequent issues of the same title, stored in the exact same box for years) with one coming back as "White" the other "Off-White". I just sold a book with "Light Tan to OW" pages with an old label that the new owner resubbed and got "Cream to OW". With experiences like that, I've come to believe its much more important to "Buy the Book, not the label".

 

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to focus on White or OW/W pages books....especially in a buyer's market like now, it only makes sense to buy what you perceive to be the best.

 

And if that philosophy forces down the price of comparably graded copies with lower page quality, all the better for guys like Aman and myself.

[arexcrooke]

I'm not the same kind of collector as you, Aman. For one thing, I care a great deal about page quality, even for purchases of encapsulated books. If you don't, then ask yourself why you'd avoid buying a restored encapsulated book - in its plastic tomb, you can't see those teeny dots of color touch, now can you? It's simply knowing that they are there, without even being able to actually see them, that changes the desirability of the book.

 

For another, I always cared a great deal about page quality, even before the advent of CGC. Indeed, the "eye appeal" of a raw book in the pre-CGC days was influenced by the whiteness of the interior covers and pages. I remember when a new pedigree would be identified, a major factor contributing to its success in the marketplace would be the overall page quality of the collection. To wit: the Massachusetts and White Mountain books were very well received in the marketplace at prices well above guide, and were recognized for their generally exceptional page quality. The Mohawk Valley books, on the other hand, had a number of DC offerings with tanning halos on the interior covers and cream to off-white pages, which turned a number of collectors off of the books.

I have to agree with namisgr here. As my collecting habits mature, and I get into higher grade books, page color has began to become a major concern of mine. Right now I am in the process of grading, labeling(writer and artist), and discerning page color on my silver and early bronze books. As I do this, I find myself more and more turned off by tan/cream pages and more attracted to off-white and white pages. 4-6 months ago, this would not have mattered to me. Now it does in a big way.

[uclapeterg]

Going from Tan to OW to Cream to OW is one thing...

 

do you have an example of Cream to OW to strictly OW?

 

and to me, there really isn't a difference between OW-W and W

 

also, I'm assuming the PQ listed is for interior page quality.. the example of having a slightly tanned front cover with OW-W page seems reasonable, although uncommon. This would be a book that I would avoid.

 

I also have been a page quality freak before the advent of CGC.. I often bought lesser grades if the pages were nice.

[ronm3-migration]

The cream books always go for less unless of course it is the highest graded. I would rather pay a little more for a whiter book. The whiter the brighter the colors the better it looks in plastic. It makes me feel better at the end of the day.

But thats just me.

[sfilosa]

I clearly understand that CGC can be somewhat inconsistent on Page Quality. They can also be inconsistent on a CGC 9.2 compared to a CGC 9.4 (or any other near grade).

 

That said:

 

PAGE QUALITY in general reflects the PRESERVATION of a COMIC BOOK. In other words books, books with lesser page quality have not been evironmentally as well preserved (taken care of) as books with higher page quality. Of course the book could have been put in a sealed vault for most of it's life, but structurally damaged during it's one time being read. Or the book could have been structurally perfect but left in an unfriendly environment.

 

The best books (including most pedigrees and the ones that are clearly the most sought after) have both qualities; structurally high grade and preserved in a paper friendly environment.

[Aman619]

I'm not the same kind of collector as you, Aman. For one thing, I care a great deal about page quality, even for purchases of encapsulated books. If you don't, then ask yourself why you'd avoid buying a restored encapsulated book - in its plastic tomb, you can't see those teeny dots of color touch, now can you? It's simply knowing that they are there, without even being able to actually see them, that changes the desirability of the book.

 

For another, I always cared a great deal about page quality, even before the advent of CGC. Indeed, the "eye appeal" of a raw book in the pre-CGC days was influenced by the whiteness of the interior covers and pages. I remember when a new pedigree would be identified, a major factor contributing to its success in the marketplace would be the overall page quality of the collection. To wit: the Massachusetts and White Mountain books were very well received in the marketplace at prices well above guide, and were recognized for their generally exceptional page quality. The Mohawk Valley books, on the other hand, had a number of DC offerings with tanning halos on the interior covers and cream to off-white pages, which turned a number of collectors off of the books.

 

I see your point, although I think your analogy is weak. I wouldnt compare restoration on a book with page quality: one is man-made and the other happenstance. Our differences are more that Im a structure first collector, with page quality a distand second, and then, only when drastic (britttle). I agree that white pages are superior to cream. But dont think cream paged books with excellent structure should sell for so much less than comparably 'damaged' books with whiter pages.

 

And as was pointed out, relying on CGC page quality notations is lik erelying on the wind for power: changing every day. Also not a great analogy, but what the heck.

[Aman619]

I clearly understand that CGC can be somewhat inconsistent on Page Quality. They can also be inconsistent on a CGC 9.2 compared to a CGC 9.4 (or any other near grade).

 

That said:

 

PAGE QUALITY in general reflects the PRESERVATION of a COMIC BOOK. In other words books, books with lesser page quality have not been evironmentally as well preserved (taken care of) as books with higher page quality. Of course the book could have been put in a sealed vault for most of it's life, but structurally damaged during it's one time being read. Or the book could have been structurally perfect but left in an unfriendly environment.

 

The best books (including most pedigrees and the ones that are clearly the most sought after) have both qualities; structurally high grade and preserved in a paper friendly environment.

 

As I say, I agree with the premium for White pages.

 

What I question, and see happening to a degree is the "PLODding" of Cream paged books. It seems that they will only sell at a fraction of the better paged copies. I think this is an overreaction. That Avengers 1 is a 9.4 for structure. ...so we can assume its is comparable to the other 9.4s out there. And yet noone is biting at 17K which I dont think is too much. How much should / would a OW/W copy sell for today?

[namisgr]

Different strokes, and there are plenty of books to satisfy both of us. The analogy I was making with color touches invisible to the naked eye was in response to the point voiced earlier that page quality shouldn't matter, because you can't see it inside a CGC slab. I strongly disagree with that sentiment.

 

My own experience is also that page quality designations sometimes change upon regrading, but I will continue to look for both raw and encapsulated books with the best available page quality. There must be lots of other collectors who share the view that page quality is critically important, because virtually all of the record prices realized for Silver Age books at a given grade are for those with primarily white and occasionally off-white to white page quality. While it is true that the difference between W and OW/W is often in the eye of the beholder (and their mood on the day they are doing the beholding), C/OW and light tan are another matter altogether. A book with toasted pages that look similar to newspapers that have been left in the garage for too long is just not a desirable collectible for some, no matter how sharp the cover corners and edges may look.

[tth2]

I'm not the same kind of collector as you, Aman. For one thing, I care a great deal about page quality, even for purchases of encapsulated books. If you don't, then ask yourself why you'd avoid buying a restored encapsulated book - in its plastic tomb, you can't see those teeny dots of color touch, now can you? It's simply knowing that they are there, without even being able to actually see them, that changes the desirability of the book.

 

For another, I always cared a great deal about page quality, even before the advent of CGC. Indeed, the "eye appeal" of a raw book in the pre-CGC days was influenced by the whiteness of the interior covers and pages. I remember when a new pedigree would be identified, a major factor contributing to its success in the marketplace would be the overall page quality of the collection. To wit: the Massachusetts and White Mountain books were very well received in the marketplace at prices well above guide, and were recognized for their generally exceptional page quality. The Mohawk Valley books, on the other hand, had a number of DC offerings with tanning halos on the interior covers and cream to off-white pages, which turned a number of collectors off of the books.

 

I think the two of you represent well the two camps re: the page quality issue.

 

Personally, I used to be a lot like you Bob, until I realized that CGC is so incredibly inconsistent with how they determine page quality as to make the page designation unreliable in its accuracy. I've owned pedigree books with OW/W pages and a tanning halo on the front cover. I've submitted books from the same original owner collection (subsequent issues of the same title, stored in the exact same box for years) with one coming back as "White" the other "Off-White". I just sold a book with "Light Tan to OW" pages with an old label that the new owner resubbed and got "Cream to OW". With experiences like that, I've come to believe its much more important to "Buy the Book, not the label".

 

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to focus on White or OW/W pages books....especially in a buyer's market like now, it only makes sense to buy what you perceive to be the best.

 

And if that philosophy forces down the price of comparably graded copies with lower page quality, all the better for guys like Aman and myself.

Page quality always has been important to me, which is why I avoid books worse than OW to the extent that I can, and if possible much prefer to get OW-W and W books. It's often a good indicator of the preservation of the book, which is important when the books are 40+ years old. Look at books that came from hot and humid areas of the US, like the southeast, or were not kept in cool dark places, compared with books from cool and dry places like Colorado or that were kept in dark basements, and tell me that page quality is not a good indicator of preservation.

 

As for CGC's consistency or inconsistency in determining page quality, I've never cracked out a slab, but based upon raw books that I've submitted, I think they're not bad. Books with superior page quality uniformly came back as W or OW-W, so I think they definitely have no problem identifying excellent page quality when they see it. I do agree that they can be a bit inconsistent between C-OW and OW, because in reality the difference often IS pretty subtle. So perhaps it's not so much that "C" should be considered to be a scarlet letter, but that collectors should look at "OW" skeptically too.

[batman_fan]

I agree on the page quality issue. I always go for the closest to white as I can. I had a key golden age book that had brittle pages. I decided to sell it as I hated the page quality. I graded it a 3.5/4.0 and tried to sell it on CLINK unsucessfully for a year. Sent it to CGC and it came back a 5.5 light tan/off-white pages. Flakes of paper were in the holder when I recieved it back. I sold it through Heritage for quite a bit more than I asked on CLINK. CGC definitely grades softer on real key issues and the page quality is very questionable. I would worry about how bad cream pages could really be.

 

I am not knocking anyone that doesn't worry about page quality, but for me, it matters.