New OPG Top 50 Silver Age books? 0

[tth2]

On 7/24/2023 at 4:11 PM, Frisco Larson said:

Speaking strictly from my experience with the realm of collectors I frequently talk with, most would rather have a Daredevil #1 over a Flash #105.

That's absolutely true, because the vast majority of SA collectors are primarily/exclusively Marvel collectors.

[sfcityduck]

On 7/23/2023 at 2:15 PM, Frisco Larson said:

 I think most would agree that Cap was more popular and widely known in the Golden Age and is more popular and widely known now!!!  

Not sure that is factual. Flash debuted in Flash 1, headlined All-Flash and Comic Calvacade, and was an original member of the JSA. He started in the GA before CA, was in print longer, and where CA’s 1950s revival failed the Flash’s succeeded. Flash was tarring in his own book in the SA a decade before CA, and a JLA headliner years before CA was revived in the Avengers. Flash was in a number of successful cartoon series from at least the 70s on, and also has had one of the most successful live action tv shows. Flash is in movies now and CA is done in the MCU.

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:54 AM, Frisco Larson said:

A 9.4 Flash #105 sold in Dec 2020 for $58,000 and a Daredevil #1 in 9.4 sold that same month for $33,000. However, that changed VERY quickly, as just under 4 months later (April 8th), a DD #1 in 9.4 sold for $72,000, another one a week later at $67,850 and one 2 months later at $78,000. Those aren't my opinion, those are real world prices pulled from the most widely used pricing resource. I disagree that a Flash #105 in 9.4 would "certainly" sell for more than a Daredevil #1 in 9.4 and the statistics appear to support that. 

The first price comparison in Dec. 2020 is apples to apples. The subsequent DD1 sales starting four months later are not. They were later in an up market and we all know prices inflated fast and in some cases are now deflating.  Has a Flash 104 in 9.4 sold since Dec. 2020? My guess is if another had come up on April 2020 it too would have inflated.

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 9:33 AM, sfcityduck said:

Not sure that is factual. Flash debuted in Flash 1, headlined All-Flash and Comic Calvacade, and was an original member of the JSA. He started in the GA before CA, was in print longer, and where CA’s 1950s revival failed the Flash’s succeeded. Flash was tarring in his own book in the SA a decade before CA, and a JLA headliner years before CA was revived in the Avengers. Flash was in a number of successful cartoon series from at least the 70s on, and also has had one of the most successful live action tv shows. Flash is in movies now and CA is done in the MCU.

 

 

 

It's my opinion that Cap was more popular then and now, just my opinion and nothing that can be considered (or was offered as) a fact. Cap debuted in Captain America #1 and by most accounts, was immediately successful, and it didn't have a big-league co-star like Hawkman doing a LOT of the heavy lifting (most collectors I know that collect any portion of the Flash run collect the Hawkman covers & find the Flash covers after the first dozen or so to be silly). It could also be said that following Cap's immediate popularity, there were a lot of knock-off characters in his likeness. I don't recall a wave of speedy characters, but there were a few, in Flash's likeness. Captain America headlined in USA Comics and also starred in All Winners & All Select, with a smattering of other stories appearing in other Timely mags, such as Sub-Mariner, Blonde Phantom, etc. To the point of, "He started in the GA before CA, was in print longer, and where CA’s 1950s revival failed the Flash’s succeeded. Flash was tarring in his own book in the SA a decade before CA, and a JLA headliner years before CA was revived in the Avengers." I think that spoke more to the conditions at Timely/Atlas/Marvel than it did to the popularity of Cap (with the exception of the Atlas superhero revival ... I think maybe people were kind of 'done' with a patriotic hero for a while). Cap had his own named cartoon series in 1966 with a number of Marx toys and others, like buttons, t-shirts, posters, etc. on the market in the 60s. And this last point speaks to why I think Cap is more popular now than the Flash: "Flash is in movies now and CA is done in the MCU." Caps first three movies have brought in well over 2 BILLION dollars at the box office and Flash has brought in nothing. If his movie/s follow a similar pattern among DC movies, it might be lucky to recover its budget. THAT, of course, remains to be seen. It's funny, like most debatable things in the world, a lot if it is how one chooses to interpret numbers, gauge popularity and which tools to choose to support one's beliefs and which ones to exclude that don't support the case one is trying to make. I think we've both made valid points here and that's good, because debating a topic while remaining respectful seems to be a bit of a lost art these days. 

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 9:41 AM, sfcityduck said:

The first price comparison in Dec. 2020 is apples to apples. The subsequent DD1 sales starting four months later are not. They were later in an up market and we all know prices inflated fast and in some cases are now deflating.  Has a Flash 104 in 9.4 sold since Dec. 2020? My guess is if another had come up on April 2020 it too would have inflated.

Agreed, the December 2020 numbers are apples to apples (which is why I posted them, as a direct comparison). The other numbers from around 4 to 6 months later were offered to show the "change" I see taking place in the market and hierarchy of most valuable comics. If there were any Flash #105 sales in 9.4 after the referenced one in December 2020, I'd have included them, but alas, that is the last recorded sale of that issue in that grade. 

[Crowzilla]

On 7/24/2023 at 10:41 AM, sfcityduck said:

The first price comparison in Dec. 2020 is apples to apples. The subsequent DD1 sales starting four months later are not. They were later in an up market and we all know prices inflated fast and in some cases are now deflating.  Has a Flash 104 in 9.4 sold since Dec. 2020? My guess is if another had come up on April 2020 it too would have inflated.

Definitely the original poster cherry picked data points to support his contention. No other Flash 105 has sold since Dec 2020, and the most recent high grade sale as a 9.2 for $48,000 in Nov 2022. Meanwhile DD #1 in 9.4 has a most recent sale of $45,600 in that same month of Nov 2022, and 9.2 copies have sold for $34,800 and $30,300.

I think there is a reasonably strong evidence that if a Flash #105 in 9.4 came to market it would beat the current prices for a Daredevil #1 in the same grade.

[Crowzilla]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:48 PM, aardvark88 said:

Batman 121 and GL 1 equal $ over ASM # 14 Green Goblin?

Why is this incorrect? There are no recent Bat #121 sales in 9.2 to compare, but the last 9.0 sold for $28,750 in 2022, and an 8.5 sold for $15,600 in November of 2022. Spidey #14 sales in 9.0 show at $15,000 and even in the 2021 highs it never topped $18,000, while in 8.5 it sold for $8500. Green Lantern #1 had a 9.2 sale in Sep 2022 for $24,000 and Spidey 14 most recent sale in that grade was $23,400 (up substantially from the April sale of $17,400 but still below the GL level).

From data it appears that the NM- price in Overstreet is correct as it relates to those three books. If you want to argue that in lower grades Spidey #14 sells for a higher price, that is a different story, as the chart is for NM- grades  (but I think Bat 121 beats Spidey 14 in equal grades at all levels, probably not so much for GL 1)

[jjonahjameson11]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:50 AM, Frisco Larson said:

It's my opinion that Cap was more popular then and now, just my opinion and nothing that can be considered (or was offered as) a fact. Cap debuted in Captain America #1 and by most accounts, was immediately successful, and it didn't have a big-league co-star like Hawkman doing a LOT of the heavy lifting (most collectors I know that collect any portion of the Flash run collect the Hawkman covers & find the Flash covers after the first dozen or so to be silly). It could also be said that following Cap's immediate popularity, there were a lot of knock-off characters in his likeness. I don't recall a wave of speedy characters, but there were a few, in Flash's likeness. Captain America headlined in USA Comics and also starred in All Winners & All Select, with a smattering of other stories appearing in other Timely mags, such as Sub-Mariner, Blonde Phantom, etc. To the point of, "He started in the GA before CA, was in print longer, and where CA’s 1950s revival failed the Flash’s succeeded. Flash was tarring in his own book in the SA a decade before CA, and a JLA headliner years before CA was revived in the Avengers." I think that spoke more to the conditions at Timely/Atlas/Marvel than it did to the popularity of Cap (with the exception of the Atlas superhero revival ... I think maybe people were kind of 'done' with a patriotic hero for a while). Cap had his own named cartoon series in 1966 with a number of Marx toys and others, like buttons, t-shirts, posters, etc. on the market in the 60s. And this last point speaks to why I think Cap is more popular now than the Flash: "Flash is in movies now and CA is done in the MCU." Caps first three movies have brought in well over 2 BILLION dollars at the box office and Flash has brought in nothing. If his movie/s follow a similar pattern among DC movies, it might be lucky to recover its budget. THAT, of course, remains to be seen. It's funny, like most debatable things in the world, a lot if it is how one chooses to interpret numbers, gauge popularity and which tools to choose to support one's beliefs and which ones to exclude that don't support the case one is trying to make. I think we've both made valid points here and that's good, because debating a topic while remaining respectful seems to be a bit of a lost art these days. 

Agree with all of your points, and will also include Captain America’s appearances in Marvel Mystery Tales and his 15 chapter movie serial in the 1940’s as further evidence to support his popularity over the Flash in the Golden Age

Regarding the Silver Age, please remind me about the number of try-out issues in Showcase that The Flash needed before sales were deemed worthy enough to launch his own series?  Heck, Lois Lane appeared after the Flash in Showcase, yet her series was launched before his!

Additionally, we all know that due to a very bad decision to sell off his own Distribution network, Martin Goodman had to use DC’s Independent Distribution, with a limitation of only 8 titles.  Hence, Marvel was unable to publish Captain America in his own title until 1968, when the distribution agreement was no longer in place.

1970’s - Captain America headlined several reprint titles and also headlined The Invaders with Subby and the Human Torch

I can elaborate further, but the point is moot.

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:33 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Agree with all of your points, and will also include Captain America’s appearances in Marvel Mystery Tales and his 15 chapter movie serial in the 1940’s as further evidence to support his popularity over the Flash in the Golden Age

Regarding the Silver Age, please remind me about the number of try-out issues in Showcase that The Flash needed before sales were deemed worthy enough to launch his own series?  Heck, Lois Lane appeared after the Flash in Showcase, yet her series was launched before his!

Additionally, we all know that due to a very bad decision to sell off his own Distribution network, Martin Goodman had to use DC’s Independent Distribution, with a limitation of only 8 titles.  Hence, Marvel was unable to publish Captain America in his own title until 1968, when the distribution agreement was no longer in place.

1970’s - Captain America headlined several reprint titles and also headlined The Invaders with Subby and the Human Torch

I can elaborate further, but the point is moot.

How could I have left out Marvel Mystery and his movie serial? Thank you for mentioning those!!!  

Something else that deserves mention of the Golden Age Flash title is that he was the cover feature on only four of the first ten issues, then he alternated with Hawkman every other month, so while the title was Flash Comics, he was essentially a co-star. Cap was the cover feature on all but one issue of his title, the last issue, which they switched to a horror format. 

Great point about him getting several try-out issues in Showcase before they decided to resume publishing his former title! That indicates that they may not have had tremendous confidence in the character until they saw some sales results. 

 Again, it's only my opinion that Cap was and is more popular. Individual results may vary!  

 

[Crowzilla]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Additionally, we all know that due to a very bad decision to sell off his own Distribution network, Martin Goodman had to use DC’s Independent Distribution, with a limitation of only 8 titles.  Hence, Marvel was unable to publish Captain America in his own title until 1968, when the distribution agreement was no longer in place.

This has been debunked many times, most recently in Prince Namor's excellent thread entitled "Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!" which clearly shows that even in the early 60s Marvel was publishing 11+ titles per month, and that Independent News didn't give Goodman restrictions on how many titles they could publish.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:24 PM, Crowzilla said:

This has been debunked many times, most recently in Prince Namor's excellent thread entitled "Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!" which clearly shows that even in the early 60s Marvel was publishing 11+ titles per month, and that Independent News didn't give Goodman restrictions on how many titles they could publish.

Interesting, because in the Martin Goodman issue of Alter Ego, it stated that he was limited to 8 titles only.

[Crowzilla]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:40 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Interesting, because in the Martin Goodman issue of Alter Ego, it stated that he was limited to 8 titles only.

Look at Marvel's December 1963 output (again thanks for Price Namor for this):

December 2nd, 1963:   Journey Into Mystery #101, Kathy #27, Modeling with Millie #29, Patsy Walker #113, Tales to Astonish #53, Two Gun Kid #68

December 9th, 1963:   Amazing Spider-man #10, Fantastic Four #24, Kid Colt Outlaw #115, Millie the Model #119, Strange Tales #118. Tales of Suspense #51

That's 12 titles and they aren't even doing Avengers and X-Men yet.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:48 PM, Crowzilla said:

Look at Marvel's December 1963 output (again thanks for Price Namor for this):

December 2nd, 1963:   Journey Into Mystery #101, Kathy #27, Modeling with Millie #29, Patsy Walker #113, Tales to Astonish #53, Two Gun Kid #68

December 9th, 1963:   Amazing Spider-man #10, Fantastic Four #24, Kid Colt Outlaw #115, Millie the Model #119, Strange Tales #118. Tales of Suspense #51

That's 12 titles and they aren't even doing Avengers and X-Men yet.

Thanks for the info about that.

do you know if the Millie’s, Patsy Walker and Kid Colt were monthly or bi-monthly?

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:48 PM, Crowzilla said:

Look at Marvel's December 1963 output (again thanks for Price Namor for this):

December 2nd, 1963:   Journey Into Mystery #101, Kathy #27, Modeling with Millie #29, Patsy Walker #113, Tales to Astonish #53, Two Gun Kid #68

December 9th, 1963:   Amazing Spider-man #10, Fantastic Four #24, Kid Colt Outlaw #115, Millie the Model #119, Strange Tales #118. Tales of Suspense #51

That's 12 titles and they aren't even doing Avengers and X-Men yet.

From December 1957 (not long after the arrangement with Independant News was made) until September of 1960, the Atlas/Marvel entity only published 8 titles per month! That's not opinion, that's a fact which you can check at any time. Perhaps after that, since they'd been a good customer of Independent News for a few years, there was some renegotiation of titles per month that they could publish? I don't know. I doubt anyone else does either. I seriously doubt that anyone could rely on Stan's memory from so long ago and I'm sure nobody thought ANY of this would be considered important half a century later. 

[bc]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:33 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Additionally, we all know that due to a very bad decision to sell off his own Distribution network, Martin Goodman had to use DC’s Independent Distribution, with a limitation of only 8 titles.  Hence, Marvel was unable to publish Captain America in his own title until 1968, when the distribution agreement was no longer in place.

Posted this just the other day in the PHM thread; sorry for those who've already seen it...

 

I don't doubt that this is accurate initially; however, my premise is that business contracts get altered over time and are never perpetual.

When the Implosion happened in 1957, Atlas was a financial risk and IND would know that. So they likely crafted a contract to minimize the financial risk to IND which limited Atlas to the legendary 8 titles a month.

I have to assume that Atlas paid their bills on time to IND or the contract would have been terminated. 

So a few years later (1960), it's time to renegotiate the contract. Atlas has been a "good customer" (they paid the bills on time) so IND would likely allow them to publish more than 8 titles (which we see happening from 1960-1963 where we sometimes see 11 titles a month coming out).

Fast forward a few more years, Atlas/Marvel is still a good customer and the contract is amended yet again to allow even more titles a month which we see happening starting in 1965 (and Marvel starts pumping out their first reprint titles). 

Then Marvel changes distributors in '68 and the number of titles per month explodes.

If I was IND and a "good customer" was paying on-time and growing, why wouldn't I want to increase my revenue as well? 

I've done extensive search for the IND/Atlas contract, but have never found it.

In summary, I believe that Atlas did have an initial limit of 8 titles per month but that was likely increased as they proved to be a reliable customer to IND.

-bc

[Crowzilla]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:54 PM, Frisco Larson said:

From December 1957 (not long after the arrangement with Independant News was made) until September of 1960, the Atlas/Marvel entity only published 8 titles per month! That's not opinion, that's a fact which you can check at any time. Perhaps after that, since they'd been a good customer of Independent News for a few years, there was some renegotiation of titles per month that they could publish? I don't know. I doubt anyone else does either. I seriously doubt that anyone could rely on Stan's memory from so long ago and I'm sure nobody thought ANY of this would be considered important half a century later. 

Yes, but the original post was talking about during the superhero-era and the oft-reported "fact" that the reason for the split books (Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish, Strange Tales) and no Cap title of his own, was that Marvel was only allowed to publish eight titles up until 1968, when clearly that isn't true a half decade earlier.

[KirbyJack]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:47 AM, Slayah said:

Is Adventure Comics #247 hard to find in grade? I'm surprised it's not lower on the list.

To my experience; yes, it is.

Particularly with white pages.

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 12:24 PM, Crowzilla said:

On 7/24/2023 at 11:33 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Additionally, we all know that due to a very bad decision to sell off his own Distribution network, Martin Goodman had to use DC’s Independent Distribution, with a limitation of only 8 titles.  Hence, Marvel was unable to publish Captain America in his own title until 1968, when the distribution agreement was no longer in place.

This has been debunked many times, most recently in Prince Namor's excellent thread entitled "Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!" which clearly shows that even in the early 60s Marvel was publishing 11+ titles per month, and that Independent News didn't give Goodman restrictions on how many titles they could publish.

In your statement, you claim that Independent News didn't give Goodman restrictions on how many titles they could publish. That is a direct quote, see above. Evidence supports that there WAS a restriction and the statistics I provided about only 8 titles per month for the duration I outlined are fact. Maybe someone on some other thread thinks Atlas/Marvel published that amount and ONLY that amount for that period of time for another reason. I don't know. I don't care. Everyone can believe whatever they want as far as opinion, but facts are facts. 

 I'd like to add that I believe Marvel COULD'VE added a Cap title to their roster before they did, likely by 1964 or so, as the previous 8 title restriction was no longer in effect at that point in time.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by Frisco Larson

[Crowzilla]

On 7/24/2023 at 2:32 PM, Frisco Larson said:

In your statement, you claim that Independent News didn't give Goodman restrictions on how many titles they could publish. That is a direct quote, see above. Your comment wasn't tied to a specific year or timeframe, it was a blanket statement which I think is inaccurate. The statistics I provided about only 8 titles per month for the duration I outlined are fact. Maybe someone on some other thread thinks Atlas/Marvel published that amount and ONLY that amount for that period of time for another reason. I don't know. I don't care. Everyone can believe whatever they want as far as opinion, but facts are facts. 

You're correct my bad. I should have stated more clearly that that the 8 titles "limit" wasn't in force during the Marvel superhero titles age (and if there was some "limit" above 8, we have no idea what it was, just the fact that every year after 1960, the average number of titles increased until distributors were changed). It is a fact that for the time period you mentioned, Marvel averaged 8 titles per month, and I have no idea if IN limited him or not during that time period, so thank you for the correction.

[Frisco Larson]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:45 PM, Crowzilla said:

You're correct my bad. I should have stated more clearly that that the 8 titles "limit" wasn't in force during the Marvel superhero titles age (and if there was some "limit" above 8, we have no idea what it was, just the fact that every year after 1960, the average number of titles increased until distributors were changed). It is a fact that for the time period you mentioned, Marvel averaged 8 titles per month, and I have no idea if IN limited him or not during that time period, so thank you for the correction.

No worries, you were fine, and I actually amended my comment because there was mention of an element of the timeframe but also there was an earlier period where there were only 8 titles per month, so the information was just a bit tangled, but both statements were accurate, just a bit tangled up and I didn't want it to be confusing.  Btw, I dig your avatar as I'm a HUGE Godzilla fan! My FB profile pic is Godzilla and it used to be this painting that a longtime friend did based off the 1954 Godzilla.