ASM #1 sells for $520.4K 2 2

[jjonahjameson11]

An ASM #1 CGC 9.6 with white pages sold at Hake’s last nite for $520.4K.  Is this the record high price for an ASM #1?

[chrisco37]

Looks that way.  Previous GPA high (Nov 22) was 336K.  

[Dark Knight]

Maybe it has a press potential for a 9.8, hence the strong price 

[namisgr]

On 7/27/2023 at 5:29 PM, Dark Knight said:

Maybe it has a press potential for a 9.8, hence the strong price 

It's a virtual certainty that a comic of that valuation has already 'reached its full grade potential'.

[wiparker824]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:37 PM, namisgr said:

It's a virtual certainty that a comic of that valuation has already 'reached its full grade potential'.

Not necessarily. The guy who owned those posted on Reddit a bit ago. Indicated he didn’t even know how to grade them or have the funds to do so (they were his dad’s who passed and didn’t believe in grading) and that he sent them to Hake’s raw and Hake’s fronted the grading fee because he couldn’t afford it. It’s possible Hake’s fronted the fee for CCS and sent there first and he didn’t indicate it in his post but these weren’t passed around by tons of dealers who knew what they were doing.

Guy’s dad passed and he needed quick cash. 

[namisgr]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:12 AM, wiparker824 said:

Not necessarily. The guy who owned those posted on Reddit a bit ago. Indicated he didn’t even know how to grade them or have the funds to do so (they were his dad’s who passed and didn’t believe in grading) and that he sent them to Hake’s raw and Hake’s fronted the grading fee because he couldn’t afford it. It’s possible Hake’s fronted the fee for CCS and sent there first and he didn’t indicate it in his post but these weren’t passed around by tons of dealers who knew what they were doing.

Guy’s dad passed and he needed quick cash. 

Thanks for the additional info.  I still suspect that, given Hake's financial incentive to have the comic hit its best possible hammer price, it was most likely worked on if there were a chance that being so might improve the grade.  A pressing is made even more likely by the book's appearance, with the pages sticking out along the right edge of the front cover, and to a lesser extent along the top half of the left edge of the back cover as well, and doing so with only a very tiny front-to-back miswrap of the cover.  It's also got the starched collar appearance to the top edge overhang that looks unnatural and is especially apparent from the back cover.  To me, this looks like the 'Costanza' side effect of overzealous pressing for early SA Marvels, discussed heavily on the Boards years ago when the Cole Schave collection came to market.

With the extremely high value of the comic in mind, it's also not hard to envision CGC being able to turn around the grading and, if it were done, pressing, in very short order.  The period of pre-auction listing and open bidding at auction was likely the most time-consuming aspect.

Edited July 28, 2023 by namisgr

[wiparker824]

On 7/28/2023 at 6:26 AM, namisgr said:

Thanks for the additional info.  I still suspect that, given Hake's financial incentive to have the comic hit its best possible hammer price, it was most likely worked on if there were a chance that being so might improve the grade.

Unless they weigh in somewhere impossible to know for certain but all I can say is the guy who posted it had indicated his family was in a really rough spot financially and needed the quick cash. The guy said he paid “10k for ASM 1 and AF15 to be graded each” and that his total bill for grading the whole collection from CGC was near $100k. But you’re right it’s possible he didn’t know what he was paying for and Hake’s subbed to CCS or whoever they work with first. He didn’t seem like he knew a lot about comics or grading so it would have been wise for Hake’s to guide him. 
 

In any case I can’t imagine cracking an ASM 9.6 to press and regrade, and just hoping it doesn’t come back a 9.4. But I also don’t have a half a mil to blow on this book in the first place. 

[namisgr]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:33 AM, wiparker824 said:

In any case I can’t imagine cracking an ASM 9.6 to press and regrade, and just hoping it doesn’t come back a 9.4. But I also don’t have a half a mil to blow on this book in the first place. 

+1

[wiparker824]

That same guy has come back to reddit and confirmed the book was not pressed:

this guy was also posting pictures of the books raw weeks ago with the story so it seems pretty legit. So yeah, I guess you just have to have the cojones then to crack and press a half a million dollar book and hope for a 9.8 lottery ticket.

[VintageComics]

On 7/27/2023 at 5:09 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

An ASM #1 CGC 9.6 with white pages sold at Hake’s last nite for $520.4K.  Is this the record high price for an ASM #1?

I actually think that's actually probably in the correct range it should have sold for. I was shopping around a 9.6 in 2021 for more. 

On 7/27/2023 at 5:31 AM, chrisco37 said:

Looks that way.  Previous GPA high (Nov 22) was 336K.  

Like I said when that copy sold, it sold cheap and slipped through the cracks. That book has already resold for more than it sold for last year. 

[VintageComics]

On 7/27/2023 at 5:37 PM, namisgr said:

On 7/27/2023 at 5:29 PM, Dark Knight said:

Maybe it has a press potential for a 9.8, hence the strong price 

It's a virtual certainty that a comic of that valuation has already 'reached its full grade potential'.

You couldn't be more wrong and of that I'm absolutely certain. 

Risk doesn't come with a price ceiling and everyone's individual risk level is different. 

[VintageComics]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:26 AM, namisgr said:

A pressing is made even more likely by the book's appearance, with the pages sticking out along the right edge of the front cover, and to a lesser extent along the top half of the left edge of the back cover as well, and doing so with only a very tiny front-to-back miswrap of the cover.  It's also got the starched collar appearance to the top edge overhang that looks unnatural and is especially apparent from the back cover.  To me, this looks like the 'Costanza' side effect of overzealous pressing for early SA Marvels, discussed heavily on the Boards years ago when the Cole Schave collection came to market.

This is just speculation on your part and you are probably wrong (again).

The paper used for covers is very different than the paper used for interiors in vintage books. 

Silver Age Marvels were actually the most extreme example of this because Marvel tried to cut costs to compete against bigger DC and used the cheapest paper possible....which is why SA Marvels have so many more production defects than DC does.

Marvel chipping, staple problems (tears, alignment, staple insertion and problems with folding or prongs), staple pops, printer smears (we used to call them "greggy nutsack creases" back in the day), printer smears, rubs, bindery tears and chips, ripping and many other problems were all introduced because of cost cutting measures.

And this brings us around to miswraps  and miscuts.

When "saddle stitched" comics (the type with staples on the side) were printed they were printed in this order:

Sheets (including cover) are trimmed into individual pages > sheets are stacked > sheets are folded > sheets are stapled > sheets (INCLUDING COVER - THIS IS IMPORTANT SO PAY ATTENTION) ARE TRIMMED ON 3 SIDES 

So the COVER AND INTERIOR WERE TRIMMED AT THE SAME TIME TO THE SAME LENGTHS AND WIDTHS AFTER STAPLING AND FOLDING.

So if ALL SHEETS INCLUDING COVER WERE TRIMMED AT THE SAME TIME WHY DO SO MANY IF NOT MOST SA / BA MARVELS HAVE DIFFERENT SIZED COVERS AND INTERIORS?

Great question.

It's because Marvel's covers SHRINK HORIZONTALLY AND EXPAND VERTICALLY OVER TIME.

That's why on MANY IF NOT MOST Silver Age Marvels there is an extended OVERHANG at the top (or top and bottom) of SA Marvels while the pages protrude to the right.

The cover shrinks widthwise and expands vertically. 

THIS is why the pages on many SA Marvels extend beyond the cover. This is also why these production defects DON'T happen to DCs.

This is ALSO why DCs almost NEVER have shorter covers or overhang (or chipping and other production issues that Marvel has, or at least not to the same extent that Marvel has).

Using your line of reasoning, NO DCs would ever be considered pressed because their interior pages almost NEVER extend past the covers but we know that's not possible right? 

Yes, we have seen books with "shrunken covers" from pressing but stating that protruding pages are a proof that the book was likely pressed is about as accurate as stating that because water is on the ground it must have been raining with not a single cloud in sight. It might be true but the odds aren't on your side.

Or maybe the millions of $1 books floating out in dollar boxes out there with short covers were all secretly pressed by the pressing gremlins while nobody was watching. 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by VintageComics

[lou_fine]

On 7/27/2023 at 2:37 PM, namisgr said:

On 7/27/2023 at 2:29 PM, Dark Knight said:

Maybe it has a press potential for a 9.8, hence the strong price 

It's a virtual certainty that a comic of that valuation has already 'reached its full grade potential'.

Being a longer term collector from well before the existence of CGC had even entered anybody's mind, it's rather ironic how sentiment in the marketplace has changed.  

I remember the so-called bad old days of the Wild Wild West when collectors would live in adject fear of restoring their books lest it destory the value of their books.  And now with the safety and security of CCS/CGC with us, we now live in adject fear of NOT having our books "restored" prior to grading lest we not maximize the full potential and value of our books.   

[namisgr]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:48 PM, wiparker824 said:

That same guy has come back to reddit and confirmed the book was not pressed:

He's right, in that I would be surprised if this ASM #1 didn't get pressed.  It has the appearance commonly found with overzealously pressed early SA Marvels, that we came to recognize so well from the handling of the Cole Schave collection many years ago: books with 'starched collar' top overhangs front and back in which the cover extends well beyond the interior pages yet is as crisp as a starched collar; interior pages sticking out from the covers both front and back, especially along the top half of the book, despite the comic not having a severe front-to-back miswrap, which when naturally occurring exposes the pages on a front cover view, or a back-to-front miswrap, which tends to expose the pages on a back cover view.

The other sign that hints of pressing is the collection as a whole.  The Hake's auction had numerous early SA Marvels from it that had the same starched collar top edges, interior pages sticking out, and the slight counterclockwise rotation look to the front cover from when the pages are more exposed at the top half than the bottom half of the comics.  One or two had significantly impacted staples that can potentially be made worse by the pressures applied during pressing.  Considering that the collection was assembled secondhand and is not in its entirety an original owner one, it is unlikely to the extreme that most of the books with these telltale stigmata got that way naturally.

This isn't meant to suggest proof or certainty regarding the ASM #1, as for any individual comic only the owner and, if there is one, presser knows for certain, if there isn't photographic evidence of before and after appearances.  So I believe what the consigner of the book is saying.  But the statement stands that if the ASM #1 had any potential for receiving a still higher grade than the incredible one it was assigned, chances are very high it would have been manipulated in order to achieve it.  Even in the unlikely event that the owner of such a comic didn't care about maximizing the final hammer price, the auctioneer that collects fees based on the final hammer price certainly did.

Regardless of the speculation around the one particular comic as to whether it might be a 9.8 in waiting, it was an extraordinary high grade example and the price it fetched at auction seems well deserved.

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by namisgr

[jjonahjameson11]

Overhangs?  Where's Jason Ewart and his laser trimmer these days?  

[wiparker824]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:56 AM, namisgr said:

He's right, in that I would be surprised if this ASM #1 didn't get pressed.  It has the appearance commonly found with overzealously pressed early SA Marvels, that we came to recognize so well from the handling of the Cole Schave collection many years ago: books with 'starched collar' top overhangs front and back in which the cover extends well beyond the interior pages yet is as crisp as a starched collar; interior pages sticking out from the covers both front and back, especially along the top half of the book, despite the comic not having a severe front-to-back miswrap, which when naturally occurring exposes the pages on a front cover view, or a back-to-front miswrap, which tends to expose the pages on a back cover view.

The other sign that hints of pressing is the collection as a whole.  The Hake's auction had numerous early SA Marvels from it that had the same starched collar top edges, interior pages sticking out, and the slight counterclockwise rotation look to the front cover from when the pages are more exposed at the top half than the bottom half of the comics.  One or two had significantly impacted staples that can potentially be made worse by the pressures applied during pressing.  Considering that the collection was assembled secondhand and is not in its entirety an original owner one, it is unlikely to the extreme that most of the books with these telltale stigmata got that way naturally.

This isn't meant to suggest proof or certainty regarding the ASM #1, as for any individual comic only the owner and, if there is one, presser knows for certain, if there isn't photographic evidence of before and after appearances.  So I believe what the consigner of the book is saying.  But the statement stands that if the ASM #1 had any potential for receiving a still higher grade than the incredible one it was assigned, chances are very high it would have been manipulated in order to achieve it.  Even in the unlikely event that the owner of such a comic didn't care about maximizing the final hammer price, the auctioneer that collects fees based on the final hammer price certainly did.

Regardless of the speculation around the one particular comic as to whether it might be a 9.8 in waiting, it was an extraordinary high grade example and the price it fetched at auction seems well deserved.

 

He posted these books raw though months earlier before he sent them to Hake’s to grade (I’ll drop the ASM 1 here below). And they looked identical. Exact same “crisp collar”, same “interior pages sticking out”, everything. Which should at the very least rule out the idea Hake’s just did it for him.

And he made the comment about not pressing them when asked well after the sale. Which there is no incentive to lie about that at that point. And he also indicated his dad was against all things related to grading (why they were all raw) and had these for over 30 years. So if they were pressed by a previous owner it was back in the 80’s before such a thing was wildly popular. 
 

If I was a betting man I’d bet on them not having been pressed based on everything I’ve read about the collection. But yes you are correct in that none of this is exact proof and nobody will know 100%. It’s possible it was all an elaborate lie and this has been cracked and pressed from a 8.5 to a 9.6 many times over the years, the dad didn’t die, and there is no dad - this is just some dealer who’s been doing this their whole life, got the 9.6 finally and cashed in.

[jjonahjameson11]

Book looks even more impressive raw, out of the slab.  Wish I had the money for a copy in this grade.

Regardless, congrats to the buyer and seller, and thanks for making this a public sale!   

[lou_fine]

On 8/8/2023 at 5:50 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

Overhangs?  Where's Jason Ewart and his laser trimmer these days?  

Never say never as we'll all be running down to the nearest loonie store to look for the sharpest pair of scissors we can buy when the CCG ownership group has pressed and squeezed all of the potential out of poor overworked Matt and introduced Jason as the new President of CGC with his new next generation state of the art "cutting edge" of grading for all potential resubmittors.  

Edited August 8, 2023 by lou_fine

[Aman619]

I still find it wild that so many near perfect copies of these books from the early 60s exist at all. I know how MY collected copies turned from back then!  Even a copy nice enough to press into a 9.6 is remarkable.  Who had the lucky to buy a perfect copy, then save it well?  The Curator sure, but regular collectors?  amazing. 

[namisgr]

On 8/8/2023 at 9:38 AM, wiparker824 said:

He posted these books raw though months earlier before he sent them to Hake’s to grade (I’ll drop the ASM 1 here below). And they looked identical. Exact same “crisp collar”, same “interior pages sticking out”, everything.

Yep, the pages are sticking out a bit, possibly from the slight front to back cover wrap.  But the top edge isn't visible in the angled view.