Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Daredevil #2 - Story: Stan Lee  Art: Joe Orlando  Inking: Vince Colletta  Lettering: S. Rosen

Cover by: Jack Kirby (inks by Vince Colletta)

Here we see the problem of a non-Kirby/Ditko story, instead fumbled with by Lee... shooting Daredevil into space...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Daredevil #2 -

A Blind Superhero is perfect for Lee, as he describes every single thing he does...

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Daredevil #2 - My LOL moments for this issue:

[Prince Namor]

Poor Joe Orlando had a tough time at Marvel. And not just because Vince Colletta sucks. As with every artist he. had the same problems with the 'Marvel Method'.

'I had a story conference with Stan and we hashed it over. He really didn’t seem to have any ideas, but we worked out a plot, and he sent me the synopsis. I couldn’t believe it when I saw it. In one line, Stan indicated that he wanted a three-page fight sequence, in a garage, or whatever. Nothing else. So I called and asked him what I should do. He said, “You know, throw some tires around, do something with some oil, make it up as you go.” Well, that didn’t help. I’m not used to working that way. I like a full script.'

And...

admitted Orlando, “...(the problem) was that I wasn’t Jack Kirby. Jack - or Ditko, or just a couple of others - could take a couple of sentences of plot and bring in 20 pages that Stan could dialogue in an afternoon or two. When I drew out the story my way, Stan would go over it and say, ‘this panel needs to be changed’ and ‘this whole page needs to be changed’ and on and on. I didn’t plot it out the way he wanted the story told, so I wound up drawing at least half of every story twice. They weren’t paying enough for that so I quit.”

-True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:13 AM, mrc said:

The Marvel Method wasn't a problem. It was why Marvel was successful and however many times people say otherwise won't make it true. 

The Marvel Method itself isn't the problem. If the artist is a solid storyteller (a "visual writer") like Kirby or Ditko (Wood, Romita Sr, the Buscema Brothers, Steranko, Trimpe, Neal Adams later on), the result can be superior to what can be done full script, where the artist follows the writer's pacing and sequence of events (whether or not they translate well visually). Not all artists seemed comfortable working Marvel Method, though. Don Heck struggled, as did Dick Ayers. Gene Colan's work, as beautiful as it looked, often suffered from problems of pacing.

Also (a separate issue, as Ditko's article articulates), how do you write the credits to acknowledge the artist's expanded role? In Ditko's last year or so, it was Lee script (and edits), Ditko plot and pencils. By the mid-1970s, when I started reading Marvel Comics, the credits usually read "Writer-Co-plotters-Artist(s), (or Writer-Artist-Storytellers) for the creative team, which seems to describe the division of labor more accurately.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
typo

[Zonker]

On 10/11/2023 at 4:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Daredevil #2 - My LOL moments for this issue:

 

See, for this one at least, if Stan were still with us, I'd be willing to bet he would claim Electro's dialogue as written here as a feature, not a bug.  And I'd be willing to go along with him.  Most of us today cringe at jokey comic book asides following in the wake of the Batman TV show from 1966, but at this point it was probably kind of refreshing to see such a villainous motivation.  I mean, c'mon if super-villains were real, once they became super-rich, wouldn't sheer boredom inevitably be the most realistic motivation for continuing?  How many of those guys would actually care to take on all the headaches that would come with ruling the world?   

Edited October 12, 2023 by Zonker
typo

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

 Stan indicated that he wanted a three-page fight sequence, in a garage, or whatever. Nothing else. So I called and asked him what I should do. He said, “You know, throw some tires around, do something with some oil, make it up as you go.”

Didn't we recently see a scene like this in an issue of Spider-man?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/11/2023 at 8:31 PM, Zonker said:

See, for this one at least, if Stan were still with us, I'd be willing to bet he would claim Electro's dialogue as written here as a feature, not a bug.  And I'd be willing to go along with him.  Most of us today cringe at jokey comic book asides following in the wake of the Batman TV show from 1966, but at this point it was probably kind of refreshing to see such a villainous motivation.  I mean, c'mon if super-villains were real, once they became super-rich, wouldn't sheer boredom inevitably be the most realistic motivation for continuing?  How many of those guys would actually care to take on all the headaches that would come with ruling the world?   

Electro's mundane dialogue contrasts nicely with the lofty tone of the narrative box at the top of the panel. (I imagine William Conrad's voice when I read it!)

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 10/10/2023 at 2:15 AM, Steven Valdez said:

It's uncannily similar to the evolution of popular music in the '60s. Primitive yet powerful in the early-mid decade, bursting into unmatched innovation and creativity circa '68.

Movies as well. Compare the early 1960's movies to mid- 1960's movies like Rosemary's Baby, Planet of the Apes(1968) and 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Electro's mundane dialogue contrasts nicely with the lofty tone of the narrative box at the top of the panel. (I imagine William Conrad's voice when I read it!)

Exactly. THAT was what made me laugh out loud. It makes him sound like the greatest villain ever and then... he's tired of stealing cars. LOL.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:29 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Didn't we recently see a scene like this in an issue of Spider-man?

Stan took regurgitated/rejected ideas from ASM/Ditko for Daredevil. 

That scene, Electro, the Owl (who Ditko rejected and turned into the Vulture), etc.

DD struggled without a Kirby or Ditko to do the work for him, and I suspect the book would've failed without Wally Wood showing up and breathing some actual life into it.

That didn't last very long, because Wood wasn't going to put up with not getting paid for the credit/money Stan was stealing from him...

[Steven Valdez]

On 10/12/2023 at 5:53 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Movies as well. Compare the early 1960's movies to mid- 1960's movies like Rosemary's Baby, Planet of the Apes(1968) and 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

Very true, which is why i prefer those later '60s movies. Although there was a tendency to be ultra-trippy and ponderous at times, as exemplified by Space Odyssey.

Comparing the level of violence in cowboy movies... The Magnificent Seven (1960) compared to The WIld Bunch (1969) ... quite a noticeable change there too.

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

Stan took regurgitated/rejected ideas from ASM/Ditko for Daredevil. 

That scene, Electro, the Owl (who Ditko rejected and turned into the Vulture), etc.

DD struggled without a Kirby or Ditko to do the work for him, and I suspect the book would've failed without Wally Wood showing up and breathing some actual life into it.

That didn't last very long, because Wood wasn't going to put up with not getting paid for the credit/money Stan was stealing from him...

I wonder if Wally Wood's estate ever got paid later for designing the iconic red Daredevil costume? It's night and day better than the yellow costume. I think Stan really pulled a fast one on Wally Wood not only getting Wally Wood to plot the stories, but getting the iconic red Daredevil iconic costume for pennies on the dollar. Daredevil in the red costume has made Marvel multi- millions.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:41 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

I wonder if Wally Wood's estate ever got paid later for designing the iconic red Daredevil costume? It's night and day better than the yellow costume. I think Stan really pulled a fast one on Wally Wood not only getting Wally Wood to plot the stories, but getting the iconic red Daredevil iconic costume for pennies on the dollar. Daredevil in the red costume has made Marvel multi- millions.

J David Spurlock is the director of the estate - we run in some of the same circles on Facebook - I'm going to bring it up to him...

[aardvark88]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

DD struggled without a Kirby or Ditko to do the work for him, and I suspect the book would've failed without Wally Wood showing up and breathing some actual life into it.

 because Wood wasn't going to put up with not getting paid for the credit/money Stan was stealing from him...

Kirby's philosophy. Pic courtesy of Bob Beerbohm's fb page.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - Written By: Stan Lee (The Leader!)  Drawn By: Jack Kirby (The King!)  Inked By: Chic Stone (The Master!)  Lettered By: Art Simek (The Letterer!)

Cover by: Jack Kirby (inks by Sol Brodsky)

Stan used the credits to repeat an idea over and over ('Written By') while simultaneously diminishing the work of the artist, while praising what he WANTED them to be known for ('Drawn by'). To make this even more covert, he expanded the credits to include the inkers and the letterers and dressed it up for humorous effect to give it the appearance that there was no ill intention involved.

Diabolical. It started out, as a money issue - Kirby was making more than him during the monster story years, writing and drawing all of those stories - but it would turn into a quest for fame as well. 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - It's a GREAT start to this issue of the X-Men, and we can see why Lee was so anxious to work with Kirby - his ideas, even for something as simple as this, are so much better than Heck or Ayers. The Thinker using the Puppet Master - the X-Men AGAIN being tricked by Professor X (though this time HE isn't responsible), but... of all of it, I just want to know... was Kirby REALLY going to have the Thing SPANK Marvel Girl???

I suspected it might be Lee's thought process, based on the dialogue in that first panel, but the action in Kirby's work in panel 2 and 3... Hmmm...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - Unfortunately the original art from this period has the edges trimmed where, if Kirby had left notes/dialogue, we'd be able to see it! (SOME still have those edges, but in particular, many of the FF pages have been trimmed...Hmmm...)

Ok, back to the story...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS APRIL 1964

Fantastic Four #28 - Letters Pages

In the Special Announcements section, Stan officially fixes his mistake on Bruce Banner's name (having called him 'Bob' in two issues), by making his full name Robert Bruce Banner. 

Now that Kirby is finally able to concentrate on just two books, the art is getting better AND he's getting ahead of schedule enough that Stan can actually tell readers what's coming up in the next issue!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Prince Namor