Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Zonker]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:30 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Strange Tales #121 - Statement of Publication

It's interesting how the perception people have is of Marvel exploding in the 60's is not really the reality. Strange Tales at 189,305 is LOWER than it was when Kirby was doing the monster books in 1961 (191,261). Woody Woodpecker sells almost 20,000 more copies a month - Little Lulu and Yogi Bear almost 50,000 more a month.

My estimates on ASM and FF (around 240,000 a month), is still 100,000 less than the Three Stooges and Tarzan for Dell. Charlton has a hit with the Flintstones at 325,350.

Marvel was in the ACG/Charlton range of Comic Sales, but Goodman allowed for it to continue on... even books like this that didn't really have the quantity of sales he wanted (above 200,000). Some might say that people didn't 'get it' - those Human Torch stories with the generic villains - some might even say 'the sales weren't good enough', 'it was an experiment that didn't work'. Stan had tried his best, but he didn't make it work.

Instead, Stanley kept on and kept on and the line would grow. 

What was his motivating factor to keep it going until it worked? Goodman's positive reinforcement? The thrill of creativity? Having something to prove?

No.

Stanley got paid for the 'writing' of these stories. Without having to actually write them.

Was it Stanley that had the power to "keep it going until it worked?" Wouldn't Goodman have had more of a say?  The prevailing theory in this thread has been that Goodman was going to shut it down (maybe more than once) despite Stanley, and had to be talked into keeping it going by Kirby, right? Why would he suddenly give Stan free reign?

I think the answer may be that at the 12 cent cover price, those 189,305 copies brought in more revenue than the earlier 191,261 copies at 10 cents back in 1961.  Comics probably all took a hit in circulation based on the cover price increase.  But if you're right about the estimates for ASM & FF, it is very likely true that Strange Tales was underperforming in Goodman's eyes, and probably accounts for the upcoming introduction of the Thing as a co-star to try to bump up sales. 

And I'm not sure comparing Marvel's circulation to licensed characters like the Flintstones, Woody Woodpecker, Tarzan, etc. is a useful comparison.  While I don't know this, I think it likely that paying any up-front licensing fee would really make Goodman's head explode.  Wasn't the history of his business model to copy something successful, rather than pay someone else for the rights?

 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:37 AM, Zonker said:

Was it Stanley that had the power to "keep it going until it worked?" Wouldn't Goodman have had more of a say?  The prevailing theory in this thread has been that Goodman was going to shut it down (maybe more than once) despite Stanley, and had to be talked into keeping it going by Kirby, right? Why would he suddenly give Stan free reign?

I think the answer may be that at the 12 cent cover price, those 189,305 copies brought in more revenue than the earlier 191,261 copies at 10 cents back in 1961.  Comics probably all took a hit in circulation based on the cover price increase.  But if you're right about the estimates for ASM & FF, it is very likely true that Strange Tales was underperforming in Goodman's eyes, and probably accounts for the upcoming introduction of the Thing as a co-star to try to bump up sales. 

And I'm not sure comparing Marvel's circulation to licensed characters like the Flintstones, Woody Woodpecker, Tarzan, etc. is a useful comparison.  While I don't know this, I think it likely that paying any up-front licensing fee would really make Goodman's head explode.  Wasn't the history of his business model to copy something successful, rather than pay someone else for the rights?

 

I don't recall the exact numbers, but Marvel took less of a hit than DC when the price went up to 12 cents. Perhaps that encouraged Goodman to stick with the comics division rather than threatening to pull the plug every year.

[shadroch]

Marvels from 1963/64 have always been harder to come by than from 1965/66.  The explosion in popularity seems to be right about mid-1965.   The Marvel cartoons debuted in September 1966, and I suspect they helped drive sales, and then the stand-alone Spiderman cartoons followed. All the Marvel coloring books I have are dated 1966.

Edited September 29, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:37 AM, Zonker said:

Was it Stanley that had the power to "keep it going until it worked?" Wouldn't Goodman have had more of a say?  The prevailing theory in this thread has been that Goodman was going to shut it down (maybe more than once) despite Stanley, and had to be talked into keeping it going by Kirby, right? Why would he suddenly give Stan free reign?

Goodman must have felt some responsibility for Stan, having given him a job to appease family - and I'm sure Stan had to petition a couple of times to keep things going early on. He had letters he could show - actual interest from fans - and of course he still had Kirby, who Goodman know could sell books. 

On 9/29/2023 at 7:37 AM, Zonker said:

I think the answer may be that at the 12 cent cover price, those 189,305 copies brought in more revenue than the earlier 191,261 copies at 10 cents back in 1961.  Comics probably all took a hit in circulation based on the cover price increase.  But if you're right about the estimates for ASM & FF, it is very likely true that Strange Tales was underperforming in Goodman's eyes, and probably accounts for the upcoming introduction of the Thing as a co-star to try to bump up sales. 

It's why I believe Stan would have to fight to keep the line going. Hulk getting cancelled, TTA - TOS - JIM not doing as well... it would explain him bringing Kirby back to Thor (to try and save it) and Ditko to Hulk in TTA (to re-work it) and eventually Gene Colan to come in and bolster some of the others....

On 9/29/2023 at 7:37 AM, Zonker said:

And I'm not sure comparing Marvel's circulation to licensed characters like the Flintstones, Woody Woodpecker, Tarzan, etc. is a useful comparison.  While I don't know this, I think it likely that paying any up-front licensing fee would really make Goodman's head explode.  Wasn't the history of his business model to copy something successful, rather than pay someone else for the rights?

I just used those as an example. Archie and DC all outsold Marvel still, including the Fly.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:29 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I don't recall the exact numbers, but Marvel took less of a hit than DC when the price went up to 12 cents. Perhaps that encouraged Goodman to stick with the comics division rather than threatening to pull the plug every year.

We don't know about the superhero's with their own title (ASM and FF), but the others definitely took a hit:

                             1961 to 1962 to 1963

Tales of Suspense 184 to 126 to 188

Tales to Astonish 184 to 139 to 189

Journey Into Mystery 182 to 132 to 187

Strange Tales 191 to 136 to 189

Hulk's Cancellation

1962 was a tough year.

It makes sense Goodman would threaten shut down then as well...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:40 AM, Prince Namor said:

We don't know about the superhero's with their own title (ASM and FF), but the others definitely took a hit:

                             1961 to 1962 to 1963

Tales of Suspense 184 to 126 to 188

Tales to Astonish 184 to 139 to 189

Journey Into Mystery 182 to 132 to 187

Strange Tales 191 to 136 to 189

Hulk's Cancellation

1962 was a tough year.

It makes sense Goodman would threaten shut down then as well...

And in late 1962, the monster books were all given a superhero lead feature. That seems to have shored up the weaker books in the line quite nicely.

[shadroch]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:34 AM, Prince Namor said:

Goodman must have felt some responsibility for Stan, having given him a job to appease family - and I'm sure Stan had to petition a couple of times to keep things going early on. He had letters he could show - actual interest from fans - and of course he still had Kirby, who Goodman know could sell books. 

It's why I believe Stan would have to fight to keep the line going. Hulk getting cancelled, TTA - TOS - JIM not doing as well... it would explain him bringing Kirby back to Thor (to try and save it) and Ditko to Hulk in TTA (to re-work it) and eventually Gene Colan to come in and bolster some of the others....

I just used those as an example. Archie and DC all outsold Marvel still, including the Fly.

Joe Simon's Fly was out-selling King Kirby?  By the OPs timeline, Marvel was in trouble in when Kirby walked in in 1957 and was still in trouble in 1962.  That's not much of a savior. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Fantastic Four #27 - Stan Lee & Jack Kirby - Author and Illustrator Extraordinary  Inked by: Geo. Bell  Lettered by S. Rosen

 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Fantastic Four #27 - 

 

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Fantastic Four #27 - Letters Page

[Prince Namor]

Wait, I thought it was bad to use those double exclamation points...

[Dr. Haydn]

Really nice work by Geo. (Inky) Roussos on the splash page!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:04 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Strange Tales #121 - Statement of Publication

One thing I don't get--if this comic (for example) was selling consistently in the 190,000 range, why was the print run around 320,000? That means Marvel was (knowingly!) pulping around 40% of the print run every month. Yet, it seems this was the way the business was done throughout the early history of comic books.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:05 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

One thing I don't get--if this comic (for example) was selling consistently in the 190,000 range, why was the print run around 320,000? That means Marvel was (knowingly!) pulping around 40% of the print run every month. Yet, it seems this was the way the business was done throughout the early history of comic books.

The practice continued throughout the '70s as well. But the excess wasn't really being pulped, it was ending up on the black market.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Zonker]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:05 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

One thing I don't get--if this comic (for example) was selling consistently in the 190,000 range, why was the print run around 320,000? That means Marvel was (knowingly!) pulping around 40% of the print run every month. Yet, it seems this was the way the business was done throughout the early history of comic books.

Triumph of hope over experience?  Or, if comics really were 90% impulse buy items back then, perhaps a recognition that publishers had to flood the newsstands with product just in case the demand showed up?  And they'd never know where exactly that impulse would hit, so would need to cover each town's drugstores, grocery markets, bus stops, etc, just in case?

 

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/30/2023 at 1:00 PM, Zonker said:

Triumph of hope over experience?  Or, if comics really were 90% impulse buy items back then, perhaps a recognition that publishers had to flood the newsstands with product just in case the demand showed up?  And they'd never know where exactly that impulse would hit, so would need to cover each town's drugstores, grocery markets, bus stops, etc, just in case?

 

It probably didn't cost much more to print 300,000 than 200,000. Printing costs are still much like this today, where it's almost free to get extra copies beyond a certain price-point.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[shadroch]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:05 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

One thing I don't get--if this comic (for example) was selling consistently in the 190,000 range, why was the print run around 320,000? That means Marvel was (knowingly!) pulping around 40% of the print run every month. Yet, it seems this was the way the business was done throughout the early history of comic books.

Once they had presses set up and running, the difference in cost between 200,000 and 300,000 was negligible. Tying up the press at little extra cost means your competitor's books aren't getting done.

[Steven Valdez]

I've often wondered why Marvel and other publishers didn't sell their own back issues through the mail, seeing as how so many excess issues were always printed. Surely they knew all their early issues were going for multiple of cover prices after only a few months. They did make back issues of their B&W magazines available for sale in the '70s, but never the regular comics. Obviously something to do with distribution terms.

[shadroch]

Marvel never took possession of the books. The books were printed in Illinois and shipped directly to a few dozen main distributors, who shipped them to their sub-distributors. A couple of hundred(at most) were shipped to Marvel's office for reference. Goodman was in the magazine business, and 99% of magazines have zero value as back issues. The distributors sold magazines and newspapers- old stock was worthless.

  Marvel's efforts into merchandising seem to have been unorganized failures.  In addition, Marvel's offices in NYC were in expensive office buildings. I don't think it would have made economic sense to have rooms full of books, and it is very possible that their lease didn't permit retail sales in the building.  Marvel wasn't in the building they listed as their address for many years. They were in the next building and not listed in that directory. Building management didn't want their tenants bothered by fans trying to visit Marvel.

DC did offer discount subscriptions, but Marvel wanted a premium on their subscription copies- which were sent folded in half.

Edited September 30, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Tales of Suspense #54 - Written in his Magical Marvel Manner by: Stan Lee  Drawn in his Famous Flashing fashion by Don Heck

   Lettered in his smooth subtle style by S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Chic Stone)