Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Math Teacher]

On 10/29/2023 at 7:25 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I hope I wasn't outta line with that crack about DC comics being seemingly written and drawn by math teachers ... sorry about that, Chief.

No, you weren't. 

I got where you were coming from. DC stories always seemed to be wrapped up with a nice little bow at the end, not unlike how math teachers expect an answer at the end of every problem. That is why so much effort was put into solving Fermat's Last Theorem (Fermat's Last Theorem), even though it certainly wasn't elegant as Fermat claimed it to be. DC had some truly great craftsman during the Silver Age (Infantino, Anderson, Cardy, Swan, Kane, Kubert, Andru/Esposito), but they just didn't have the dynamics of Kirby and Ditko (well, maybe Infantino and Kubert did). I enjoy doing math to this day, but if I was to try to draw (which I most assuredly can't), I'm sure it would be very static and bland.

[Prince Namor]

I think the big difference between Kirby/Ditko and the DC group is the way the stories were done. DC was led by Editors and Writers. It was all about the STORY, and the art should be clean and show that. 

Kirby/Ditko had to WRITE the story themselves... so they saw it as visual... they saw it as PHYSICAL. They had to cover 20-23 pages and so a lot of that had to do with FIGHTING. Which is more ACTION based. You give Curt Swan a script that says 'Superman flies out the Window' - well that was EXACTLY what you got. With Kirby/Ditko, they, as creative writer/artists wanted to show it more stylish than that...

There's a reason Stan told people to emulate KIRBY... he didn't teach them to copy 'story ideas' - it was to imitate Kirby's STYLE.  

I was looking at Amazing Spider-man #14 from this month and it occurred to me just how EFFECTIVELY Ditko SHOWED us that the Green Goblin has a secret identity that isn't yet revealed.... the staging of it... both when introduced and at the end. 

Again, people can give Stan all the credit they want for his over the top promotion (which if you think about the payoff, is extremely self-serving in actuality), but Kirby and Ditko weren't getting paid for the writing - they KNEW it - and yet they still created some of the greatest Marvel Comics ever made.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #15 - Written by: Stan Lee (Because we couldn't afford Mickey Spillane)  Illustrated by: Steve Ditko (Because Picasso was out of town)  Lettered by: Art Simek (Because his name fits this space)

Cover by: Steve Ditko

Personally I was never a fan of Kraven, but I remember reading this first story and thinking, THAT makes sense how they've used him here... it turned out to be one of the highlights of Ditko's run...

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #15 - These two panels, depicting the reactions of 4 characters in one and 5 characters in another, heavily benefits from Ditko's storytelling and characterization but ALSO greatly benefits from Stan's experience doing those goofy dumb blonde comics for years. 

Ditko had apparently asked secretary Flo Steinburg out, and she politely declined... was Ditko using real life to come up with ideas for the comic? It certainly makes better sense than, "One day I saw a Fly walking up the side of a wall..."

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #15 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #15 - Letters Page

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:55 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Amazing Spider-man #15 - These two panels, depicting the reactions of 4 characters in one and 5 characters in another, heavily benefits from Ditko's storytelling and characterization but ALSO greatly benefits from Stan's experience doing those goofy dumb blonde comics for years. 

Ditko had apparently asked secretary Flo Steinburg out, and she politely declined... was Ditko using real life to come up with ideas for the comic? It certainly makes better sense than, "One day I saw a Fly walking up the side of a wall..."

I suppose this is a (rare) instance of Ditko playing to Stan's strengths as he plotted?

[Steven Valdez]

On 11/1/2023 at 1:30 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

I suppose this is a (rare) instance of Ditko playing to Stan's strengths as he plotted?

Those early Spider-Man stories had a lot of Betty and Veronica moments! Well, Betty and Liz.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Sgt. Fury #8 - Not a Bad Story by Ex-Sgt. Stan Lee  Passable Art by Ex-Corp. Dick Ayers  Inked by: Geo Bell  Lettered by S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Sol Brodsky)

Jack Kirby is no longer writing or drawing Sgt. Fury (other than the cover of course), which means Stan will have to lean heavily on Ayers. The first story has many of the same components as previous Kirby issues, but plain and simply lacks the action. Ayers would do a commendable job on the book overall, lasting most of ten years on it!

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Sgt. Fury #8 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Sgt. Fury #8 - Letters Page!

In 1966, when we'd get our first look at the publishing numbers of the Superhero Books, Sgt. Fury would place a respectable 5th among the Marvel titles, ahead of Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, X-Men and Tales of Suspense.

And that's after Kirby had been gone from the book for two years, so... a letters page being printed makes me think that maybe this was one of their better selling books in 1964... and it's going monthly now...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Sgt. Fury #8 - ADs for this issue

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:42 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Those early Spider-Man stories had a lot of Betty and Veronica moments! Well, Betty and Liz.

We would see a lot more of that once John Romita (Sr.) took over the title (MJ vs. Gwen, by then). I'm not sure of that was at Stan's request, or if it was in John's comfort zone after years of doing romance comics for DC.

[Dr. Haydn]

Sgt. Fury #8: This one is pretty good! Ayers seems more at home in this title than he did in Strange Tales. He is speaking somewhat from experience, as an ex-corporal, I suppose.

Per Wikipedia: "At 18, during World War II, he [Ayers] enlisted in the United States Army Air Corps, and was stationed in Florida, where after failing radar training he was sent for a month's art training at McTomb University and began working as an artist in the Air Corps' Operations division."

So, Darling Dick was stateside during the war, like many others who had a specialized talent.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
Added issue number

[Dr. Haydn]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:27 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MARCH 1964

Sgt. Fury #8 - Letters Page!

In 1966, when we'd get our first look at the publishing numbers of the Superhero Books, Sgt. Fury would place a respectable 5th among the Marvel titles, ahead of Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, X-Men and Tales of Suspense.

And that's after Kirby had been gone from the book for two years, so... a letters page being printed makes me think that maybe this was one of their better selling books in 1964... and it's going monthly now...

It's interesting that Ailsa Linge noticed the "H-Bombs" gaffe from a few issues back! So, Stan wasn't entirely wrong about Marvel fans being sophisticated (savvy, anyhow).

[Steven Valdez]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:29 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Sgt. Fury #8: This one is pretty good! Ayers seems more at home in this title than he did in Strange Tales. He is speaking somewhat from experience, as an ex-corporal, I suppose.

Per Wikipedia: "At 18, during World War II, he [Ayers] enlisted in the United States Army Air Corps, and was stationed in Florida, where after failing radar training he was sent for a month's art training at McTomb University and began working as an artist in the Air Corps' Operations division."

So, Darling Dick was stateside during the war, like many others who had a specialized talent.

There sure was a lot of safe work for comic artists in the military during WWII.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Avengers #6 - Written by the Inspired Typewriter of Stan Lee  Drawn by the Enchanted Pencil of Jack Kirby  Inked by the Gifted Brush of Chic Stone  Lettered by the Scratchy Pen of S. Rosen

Cover by Jack Kirby (inks by Chic Stone)

Part ONE:

Edited November 3, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Avengers #6 -

Part TWO:

Edited November 3, 2023 by Prince Namor

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

Amazing Interview with Steve Ditko's younger brother and nephew...

Pat Ditko (Steve's brother): When I first read Spider-man, and I saw Peter Parker, I told everybody, THAT's Steve Ditko.

 

Just watched this and it`s an outstanding interview!

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1964

Avengers #6 - Letters Page

“It’s the place where we can let our hair down and talk with you, straight from the shoulder. (Of course, Jack has more hair to let down than Stan does! Stan just kinda combs the fuzz!)”