Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Mmehdy]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:03 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

"Fabulous" Florence "Flo" Steinberg?

what a class act...read about her life...amazing how she came full circle...On Wki

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 11/25/2023 at 11:49 PM, Mmehdy said:

what a class act...read about her life...amazing how she came full circle...On Wki

All I can say she  was beautiful. One thing about Stan Lee he knew how to talk , bet he gave Flo the spin and she liked him. I really think it was Flo answering those letter pages and not Stan Lee. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking
I said emails instead of letter pages.

[Steven Valdez]

On 11/26/2023 at 5:17 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

All I can say she  was beautiful. One thing about Stan Lee he knew how to talk , bet he gave Flo the spin and she liked him. I really think it was Flo answering those letter pages and not Stan Lee. 

Flo might have written the Bullpen Bulletins too...? After all, Stanley was far too busy touring the country to get much work done. I wonder if she even helped him out with the comic scripting?

[Prince Namor]

They worked her like a dog, and she smiled and represented the company like a salaried professional.

She asked for a $5 raise in 1968, and got turned down.

"I left Marvel in 1968. I don't remember exactly why; it was probably because I couldn't get a $5 [per week] raise. This was [Marvel Comics owner] Magazine Management, not Stan — they didn't believe in giving raises to people in certain jobs because they could be so easily replaced."

- Flo Steinburg

 

Poor dumb Flo. Completely blinded by Lee's act. Stan Lee COULD have gotten her that raise. In 1968, Stan Lee saw the writing on the wall. At this point he's only in the office two days a week and had everything operating on automatic pilot. All he had to do was breeze in, give some orders and everything would be carried out. Goodman was putting his deal together with Cadence, taking the financial responsibilities out of his hands. With that, Marvel expanded in 1968 to its highest output and PROFITS since the Implosion more than 10 years earlier. From 1967 to 1969 they increased their yearly total of published titles by 59 books (after increasing only 4 books between 1966 and 1967), increasing sales by over $16 Million dollars MORE. Marvel was doing the majority of the sales for Magazine Management now - close to $60 Million to their maybe $15 to $20 Million in Magazines.

Flo, the same as Houseroy, who'd get forgotten and left to fend for himself later as well - were two of Stan's biggest supporters, cheerleaders and liars (Flo most likely didn't know any better). He left them to sink or swim. Shouldn't be surprising - he'd eventually even screw over Martin Goodman as well, a guy who essentially gave him a job for 30 years despite 20 years of ineptitude. 

They could've afforded Flo. They just choose not to. It was about, and only about what Lee wanted. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - (Not) Written by Stan Lee  (Ploted, Inked and) Drawn by Steve Ditko  Lettered by S. Rosen

I would almost bet this was at least partially Stan's idea. And this is where we see the importance of guys like Ditko and Kirby vs Romita and pretty much every one else. The greatest Annuals ever done for Marvel were the first three FF Annuals and the first Two Spider-man Annuals. After that, Ditko was gone. Kirby had learned to pull back. And any hype behind one of Stan's ideas would simply not be able to deliver. 

Stan was a (ok) Editor, who certainly understood promotion and hype. But without Kirby and Ditko, all of this would've failed. It was the STORIES, as presented by the artists that drove it all. Fandom went NUTS when Ditko left Marvel. There are STILL people that hold a grudge against Kirby for leaving Marvel. (Did people blame Tina Turner when she left Ike?)

In the 70's, despite irregular content, mediocre stories, a disappearance of Annuals, etc., people couldn't even TELL when Stan was no longer around. These are the weirdest fans of all. "Just put 'Stan Lee Presents' on the title page and I'll feel that same cozy feeling I had when I was a little boy!" Bizarre.

If it looks like and smells like , just slap 'Stan Lee Presents' on it, and a whole butt load of Marvel Zombies will still buy it! Crazy.

Anyway, THIS is one of the greatest bargain priced books of ALL TIME for 25 cents!

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 -

Part TWO:

[Steven Valdez]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:12 PM, Prince Namor said:

Completely blinded by Lee's act. Stan Lee COULD have gotten her that raise.

Reminds me of how Stanley claimed there was nothing he could do in regards to Jack getting his original art pages back. As if Stan had no influence over what happened at Marvel Comics Group.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 -

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 -

Part FOUR:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - That's a 41 page story. What would follow would be 31 pages of supplemental material!!!

Starting with: The Rogues Gallery! We'd NEVER again, see a 16 issue run of a comic produce THAT many great, and long time used villains again. Had we ever before?

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - The Secrets of Spider-man!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - Even more Secrets of Spider-man!

[Steven Valdez]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:53 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - Even more Secrets of Spider-man!

That certainly is one magnificent comic book!! Would have been the best 25 cents you'd ever spent if you were around at the time.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - And then... there was this.

Ditko and Kirby were both aware very early on of how 'things worked' with Lee. And they accepted it and chose to work in that way.

But here Lee begins the process of the 'Big Lie', and it would change his work relationship with Ditko from here on out.

Notice on the first page all of the characters surrounding Stan, showing him as the man with ideas, while Ditko sleeps and 'spider's' do his artwork for him.

Within the 'story', it's Stan with the idea - asking for twelve panels a page - and even writing 'Stan gives Steve the Script'. On the third page, again Stan refers to a 'script', and 'Stan's probably written the Avengers and X-Men by now'... inferring that Lee does so much work, while the artists lag behind on a single project. And finally, Lee comes up with another idea - in his sleep again...

"Stan Lee never wrote a full script for any Spider-man, Dr. Strange or Hulk story (or any of the five-page back-up stories) we did together. A full script is where the writer alone decides on the complete story line. He breaks down the story for the number of panels needed for every page, describes every panel idea (setting, action, mood, etc.) and he writes all the captions and dialogue."

- Steve Ditko, from A MINI-HISTORY, 1. "The Green Goblin" © 2001 S. Ditko

"Stan surrendered his part of the writer 's division of labor, as a writer of a full script, to the artist. He also incorrectly identified the true roles and function of each person in the way he wrote credits"

- Steve Ditko, from A MINI-HISTORY, 1. "The Green Goblin" © 2001 S. Ditko

[Prince Namor]

About the time this was published, just enough time for him to see it, Ditko was working on Amazing Spider-man #18. On that issue he'd defy an order by Stan, and it would change their relationship forever. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 11/27/2023 at 5:50 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - That's a 41 page story. What would follow would be 31 pages of supplemental material!!!

Starting with: The Rogues Gallery! We'd NEVER again, see a 16 issue run of a comic produce THAT many great, and long time used villains again. Had we ever before?

I always loved that picture of the Lizard. It stirs feelings that are hard to put into words  

ASM Annual #1 was an outstanding comic.

[Zonker]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:04 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1964

Amazing Spider-man Annual #1 - And then... there was this.

Ditko and Kirby were both aware very early on of how 'things worked' with Lee. And they accepted it and chose to work in that way.

But here Lee begins the process of the 'Big Lie', and it would change his work relationship with Ditko from here on out.

Notice on the first page all of the characters surrounding Stan, showing him as the man with ideas, while Ditko sleeps and 'spider's' do his artwork for him.

Within the 'story', it's Stan with the idea - asking for twelve panels a page - and even writing 'Stan gives Steve the Script'. On the third page, again Stan refers to a 'script', and 'Stan's probably written the Avengers and X-Men by now'... inferring that Lee does so much work, while the artists lag behind on a single project. And finally, Lee comes up with another idea - in his sleep again...

"Stan Lee never wrote a full script for any Spider-man, Dr. Strange or Hulk story (or any of the five-page back-up stories) we did together. A full script is where the writer alone decides on the complete story line. He breaks down the story for the number of panels needed for every page, describes every panel idea (setting, action, mood, etc.) and he writes all the captions and dialogue."

- Steve Ditko, from A MINI-HISTORY, 1. "The Green Goblin" © 2001 S. Ditko

"Stan surrendered his part of the writer 's division of labor, as a writer of a full script, to the artist. He also incorrectly identified the true roles and function of each person in the way he wrote credits"

- Steve Ditko, from A MINI-HISTORY, 1. "The Green Goblin" © 2001 S. Ditko

Well, if we're going strictly by Marvel Method forensic analysis, it must have been Steve who came up with the visual gags of poor overworked Stan having all those Marvel characters crowding around his typewriter, while dozing Steve lets the spiders do the artwork for him (which I think is a really funny self-deprecating gag coming from Ditko).  Stan does use his captions to puff up his "scripting" contributions, and maybe that does indeed rub Steve the wrong way.  But Stan also uses his dialogue to have some fun at his own expense here:

"you practice signing your name all over"
"it sure wasn't you, Lee"
"I copied it from one of the best classics I could find"  
"Lee's swelled head"

[Dr. Haydn]

Note that while Stan gets a new idea "at that very moment," the moon is in a different phase from the previous panel. Hmm...

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 11/27/2023 at 12:59 AM, Steven Valdez said:

That certainly is one magnificent comic book!! Would have been the best 25 cents you'd ever spent if you were around at the time.

This Spider-Man annual is what got me into Marvel. It made me realize something different is going on with Marvel.

[Zonker]

On 11/27/2023 at 10:36 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

Note that while Stan gets a new idea "at that very moment," the moon is in a different phase from the previous panel. Hmm...

 indeed.  Makes you wonder if Steve's idea of the gag went something like:

Steve: "Glad that crazy idea is done.  Fortunately, I'll never have to deal with that again!"
Narrator: "But, the very next month..."

Then Stan realized the joke worked better if it was timed to land immediately after Steve completed drawing the previous brainstorm.