Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1964) The Slow Build 5 5

[Steven Valdez]

Angry Mr Shadroch, it's obvious you have a massive grievance against the legacy of Jack Kirby, but how about Neal Adams? These are comments he made in Comic Book Artist #6 1999:

"Carmine would say to me, 'I'm a little surprised your books aren't doing well.' I would say back to Carmine, 'I don't think you understand what's happening here.' "

Neal went on: "I get interviewed all the time, 'why did the X-Men get cancelled? What happened to GL/GA? Why did Deadman get cancelled?' DC told me it was poor sales."

"Poor sales? I just don't think so. History has shown... it was all created by the affidavit return system, which made it totally preposterous. It was like telling people, 'Why don't you take the money that's halfway out of my pocket? And you're a fool if you don't.' "

"You know, as soon as Barry Smith did a book, or Steranko did a book, or one of my books, everybody would go into their local distributor and buy boxes of those books. The real sales of those books shot up like crazy, but the publishers had no idea how many were really sold."

 

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2023 at 7:28 AM, shadroch said:

Seriously, you are incredibly mistaken.   Obviously, you know nothing about how magazine distributors worked at the time.  You insult the thousands of small businesses and hobbyists who had the foresight to take advantage of the wholesale side of the business.

... people also don't understand the value of a regional distribution network. It certainly wasn't something to cavalierly jeopardize by selling a few 12 dollar cases out the back door, and even if so, it's funny only the guys whose books were cancelled are chiming in and pointing fingers. I mean, why weren't Romita Spideys and some of the other top sellers not experiencing this attrition and entropy... not having THEIR titles cancelled? Why would a distributor shoot their self in the foot by dragging down the sales of a burgeoning cash cow?They're in it for the long haul. I'm sure some fraud went on, but I need more than some hearsay to convince me. Where are the lawsuits, the plaintiffs, the proof. Even if it came to an end in 1980, supposedly, where is the fleshing out of the accusation? I need more than some finger pointing "butt hurt", no matter who is making the claim. I watch shows all the time that everyone I know LOVES, and yet they still get cancelled. Excellence and critical acclaim don't automatically equal money in the bank. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited September 23, 2023 by jimjum12

[Steven Valdez]

Bob Beerbohm via Facebook:

"I was just turning 16 when I launched my comic book experiment in self employed capitalism. A lot of us were beginning to stir that year.
It was 1968 I went full bore buying quantity to resell in order to be able to score stuff I did not have. I was learning from the older guys placing ads in Marvel classifieds.
In 1969 began buying a couple hundred a month of Neal Adams X-Men. The House of Mystery with Adams and Wrightson caught my attention in a big way.
By 1970 Conan #1 my pre-order was hitting 600 copies. I pre-ordered just 200 of #2 and #3
Similar most of the numbers with Neal Adams Green Lantern Green Arrow. Most all of us missed scoring #76 but #77 has some speculation in it. By #78 the speculation was rampant.
As the title garnered national coverage – including 3 pages in Newsweek – the perceived sales DC NPP Independent News was receiving was the sold numbers were actually going down. GL/GA was one of the most heavily "hit" by affidavit returns fraud on that "honor" system mandated by the larger ID gigs around the country in order they would handle ANY comic books.

By 1971 with books like New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle #1 I was pre-ordering similar numbers as GL/GA"

Edited September 23, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[shadroch]

Isn't it obvious that the mob ran everything and tried to screw Neal and Jack?  It was possibly Stan Lee directing things behind the scenes. Didn't Kirby put out an expose on the Mob? It all comes together when you see the many webs of the conspiracy.

Not understanding how a foreign distribution system works is one thing, but after it is explained to you, to continue to accuse people of being thieves and conducting illicit sales is sad. 

[shadroch]

On 9/23/2023 at 6:07 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Bob Beerbohm via Facebook:

"I was just turning 16 when I launched my comic book experiment in self employed capitalism. A lot of us were beginning to stir that year.
It was 1968 I went full bore buying quantity to resell in order to be able to score stuff I did not have. I was learning from the older guys placing ads in Marvel classifieds.
In 1969 began buying a couple hundred a month of Neal Adams X-Men. The House of Mystery with Adams and Wrightson caught my attention in a big way.
By 1970 Conan #1 my pre-order was hitting 600 copies. I pre-ordered just 200 of #2 and #3
Similar most of the numbers with Neal Adams Green Lantern Green Arrow. Most all of us missed scoring #76 but #77 has some speculation in it. By #78 the speculation was rampant.
As the title garnered national coverage – including 3 pages in Newsweek – the perceived sales DC NPP Independent News was receiving was the sold numbers were actually going down. GL/GA was one of the most heavily "hit" by affidavit returns fraud on that "honor" system mandated by the larger ID gigs around the country in order they would handle ANY comic books."

He was pre-ordering from a distributor. What part of that don't you understand?  Distributors sold their copies to anyone with ten cents to pay for the product. Beerbolm, whose memory is suspect and who was ran off this site for the nonsense he posted, could have gone store to store and paid fifteen cents for the books or he could order them from a distributor for ten cents, just like every other account the distributor had. You said there was no way for people to buy wholesale, and then you provided evidence that Beerbolm doing just that.  You claim that distributors didn't report their public sales, yet have provided zero evidence of it. Your entire argument seems to be distributors weren't allowed to sell to people, only to newsstands, so those sales went unreported. There were a few jurisdictions that didn't allow wholesalers to sell to the public, but those were few and far between. While on vacations, I was able to buy from a distributor in Ft. Lauderdale, and then a few months later in New Orleans. 

Does the term Cash and Carry mean anything to you? It isn't a sinister side operation.

[shadroch]

Comic books were almost an afterthought to the magazine distributors of the 1960s and 70s.  On weeks when there was a holiday, Imperial didn't even distribute comics that week as their drivers had to deliver the magazines that cost two or three times more than comics and were far more profitable. I used to have to go a few towns over to get my books on those weeks until I learned I could buy direct from the distributor.

[Zonker]

On 9/22/2023 at 11:36 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Who were they buying in bulk from? The publishers didn't sell directly to dealers in those days and they still don't. There were no legitimate comic book wholesalers until the direct market began in the early 1980s.

I don't think that's quite correct.  Phil Seuling was running his operation by the mid-1970s.  My first comic convention (1976? 1977?) I was gob-smacked to find comic books for sale almost a month earlier than they would show up at the drugstores.  It was as if I had stumbled across a time travel portal from the future!  

[shadroch]

Comic books were almost an afterthought to the magazine distributors of the 1960s and 70s.  On weeks when there was a holiday, Imperial didn't even distribute comics that week as their drivers had to deliver the magazines that cost two or three times more than comics and were far more profitable. I used to go a few towns over to get my books on those weeks until I learned I could buy directly from the distributor.

 If SV explained how he thinks the distribution networks worked, perhaps we could clear up his misconceptions.  He seems to think any sales to individuals were somehow illicit, but I don't understand why.

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:58 AM, Zonker said:

I don't think that's quite correct.  Phil Seuling was running his operation by the mid-1970s.  My first comic convention (1976? 1977?) I was gob-smacked to find comic books for sale almost a month earlier than they would show up at the drugstores.  It was as if I had stumbled across a time travel portal from the future!  

Phil Seuling pioneered the direct market, supplying non-returnable comics to shops rather than via the newsstand distribution system. Perhaps this is whom Mr Shadroch was referring to?

[shadroch]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:38 AM, Steven Valdez said:

Phil Seuling pioneered the direct market, supplying non-returnable comics to shops rather than via the newsstand distribution system. Perhaps this is whom Mr Shadroch was referring to?

What part of distributors selling to the public are you not understanding? Anyone could open a wholesale account at your local distributorship. I was either sixteen, or might have just turned seventeen. I didn't have my driver's license and would lock up my bike a distance away and walk in. I think I had to leave a $20 deposit that got credited quickly.  When Marvel went to 25 cents cover, I paid sixteen and a half cents and had the books a few days before they hit the stands.  Sometimes, I'd have them a whole week before the routes were delivered. Comics were low-priority and frequently got bumped. NYC had a prolonged newspaper strike in 1978 and without daily papers, distributors laid off staff and disrupted comic distribution.  Many collectors learned about buying wholesale and just how simple it was. Then, Sueling upped the ante by offering much larger discounts and the ability to get books a week or two sooner. The newsstand model no longer made sense.

One day a week, before routes were broken down, the  Imperial warehouse was open for the public and if you had a wholesale account, you got thirty percent off.  If you think a company is going to operate illegally one day a week for pocket change, I applaud your imagination.  

Imperial stopped comics entirely in the early 1980s and went bankrupt not long after.  The new distributor that replaced them no longer sells to the public, but their operation is a fraction of the size of the old warehouse.

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:13 PM, shadroch said:

If you think a company is going to operate illegally one day a week for pocket change, I applaud your imagination.  

People today have a disconnect with math, computers do it all for them, and many just don't grasp how cheap a case(or bundle) of comics was in 1970. 

Today a case of 100 books would wholesale for as much as 300 bucks, and might be worth the trouble... but at 14 bucks a case, that was chicken feed, even in 1970. Even as far back as the 70's the Mob had moved on to much greener pastures than cargo theft. From what I've read,in the 30's and 40's, the Mob used the periodical industry to launder the proceeds of the much more lucrative graft, vice, and extortion they engaged in. They used the newsstand distribution system to do this, not by selling cases off the back of a truck, but by claiming the returns as sold, so that they DID show up on the books as profit, sifting the drug, booze, and prostitution proceeds that couldn't be explained without a nice rinsing, into the "black". To do that, sales had to appear to be BOOSTED, not reduced ... so affidavit fraud was always a bit more complicated than selling cases of Kirby and Adams to Hippies who had opened the small network of comic stores across the country ... and trust me, there weren't many in 1970. There have been books written and published about this... Google is our friend. With most business conducted with computers for the last few decades, this sort of thing is a lot less common, if it even occurs at all. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

... I saw it on the Internet, it just HAS to be true, doesn't it Wally ?

Edited September 24, 2023 by jimjum12

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/24/2023 at 1:12 PM, jimjum12 said:

People today have a disconnect with math, computers do it all for them, and many just don't grasp how cheap a case(or bundle) of comics was in 1970. 

Today a case of 100 books would wholesale for as much as 300 bucks, and might be worth the trouble... but at 14 bucks a case, that was chicken feed, even in 1970. Even as far back as the 70's the Mob had moved on to much greener pastures. From what I've read, the Mob used the periodical industry to launder the proceeds of the much more lucrative graft, vice, and extortion they engaged in. They used the newsstand distribution system to do this, not by selling cases off the back of a truck, but by claiming the returns as sold, so that they DID show up on the books as profit, sifting the drug, booze, and prostitution proceeds that couldn't be explained without a nice rinsing, into the "black". To do that, sales had to appear to be BOOSTED, not reduced ... so affidavit fraud was always a bit more complicated than selling cases of Kirby and Adams to Hippies who had opened the small network of comic stores across the country ... and trust me, there weren't many in 1970. There have been books written and published about this... Google is your friend. With most business conducted with computers for the last few decades, this sort of thing is a lot less common, if it even occurs at all. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

... I saw it on the Internet, it just HAS to be true, doesn't it Wally ?

Actually, I read about it in respectable magazine articles and interviews by and with major, well-known dealers like Bob Beerbohm. Chuck Rozanski freely admits his Mile High II collection (of MILLIONS of books) consisted of the fruits of affidavit 'return' fraud. The co-owner of National Comics up to 1967, Irwin Donenfeld, also knew full-well that it was going on and is on the record as acknowledging it.

As did the 'butthurt' Neal Adams, a major activist for the rights of comic book professionals, who ensured the creators of Superman were looked after in their later years. Phil Seuling pioneered direct sales to comic dealers to circumvent the rampant fraud situation. This spurred on Jim Shooter who helped to make direct sales the norm. Shooter has written plenty about affidavit return fraud.

I was also witness to comic-book return fraud happening when an associate (uncle) of mine bought returns from a distributor for pennies on the dollar. (He was caught out when he greedily tried to make similar deals with other distributors around the country.)

And I bought from multiple dealers in the '70s and '80s who had seemingly inexhaustible supplies of Marvel comics from 1965 onwards, generally in pristine, unread condition.

I never claimed the Mob had a big interest in affidavit 'return' fraud. That was perpetrated at a much lower level by small-time local distributors exploiting an absurd loophole. A couple of hundred extra dollars a month (decades ago) for guys like that was worth the minimal risk of their petty crimes.

"...by claiming the returns as sold, so that they DID show up on the books." No, that's the opposite of what affidavit 'return' fraud is. The 'returns' weren't claimed as sold, they were claimed as unsold so the fraudsters would get a refund on books they'd already profited from. Double-dipping, essentially. That's the whole basis of the scam, and it helps to understand that.

It's not just some half-baked tinfoil-hat conspiracy theory.

 "Google is your friend. ... I saw it on the Internet, it just HAS to be true, doesn't it Wally ?" Spot the inherent contradiction

 

[jimjum12]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:19 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I never claimed the Mob had a big interest in affidavit 'return' fraud. That was perpetrated at a much lower level by small-time local distributors exploiting an absurd loophole. A couple of hundred extra dollars a month (decades ago) for guys like that was worth the minimal risk of their petty crimes.

Actually you and Chuck both did. You mention Rozanski but pick and choose only what fits your delusion. Chuck's MHII collection is probably the ONLY real time example of what you allude to, but yet there the books were, 20 years later, still sitting UNSOLD, in an alleged Mobster's rickety warehouse. All the other examples are just BS hearsay by operators who are still trying to maintain some relevancy, even though their day in the sun is gone. I've tried to explain to you what actually happened, if you refuse to open your mind, there's just not much else I can do. The type of fraud you insist was prevalent was happening, just nowhere near the scale you, and others, insinuate. The FBI was not involved to thwart some cases being sold off the back of a truck, my friend. They were looking for RICO level money laundering that had been going on forever. Now what happened to the "sold" cases that weren't actually sold? ...who knows? GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

... also, "affidavit return fraud" absolutely can be used the way I described and WAS for years. Rather than returning the overstock, it is marked, FRAUDULENTLY, as sold. The dirty money is then used to satisfy the difference, and the dirty money becomes clean. The "affidavit" was a clipped cover that was simply never returned(or probably even clipped). It has all been discussed in print previously, but one has to be looking for the whole picture, not just what suits their narrative. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by jimjum12

[Prince Namor]

Beyond the affidavit fraud...

The idea that Jack Kirby failed at DC is ludicrous and simply a means by which Stan Lee sympathizers can justify in their minds that it had happened. It was COMICS in general that were failing. 

Fantastic Four and Thor sold 340,000 and 266,000 respectively in 1969.

Jimmy Olsen under Kirby went from 379,000 to 333,000 to 299,810 and suffered from, as did all the titles at DC the mistake DC made of going to 25 cents and adding reprint material. But Kirby made it through the price change nightmare still AT 300,000 copies a month. Oh yeah, Olsen became a MONTHLY book when Kirby took it over. For his full run on it of 16 issues. 

After he left it was cancelled a year later, unable to sell. 

 

Where did the FF go without Kirby?

From 340,000 to 285,000 to 275,000. 

Straight downhill. 

Kirby's Jimmy Olsen OUTSOLD Lee's Fantastic Four AND Thor in 1970 and 1971!

That's not failure.

 

We don't have numbers for New Gods, Forever People or Mister Miracle.

We DO have numbers for Kamandi, which Kirby did for 3 years, MONTHLY.

In Kamandi #41, cover dated May 1976, at the HEIGHT of DC's implosion, the Statement of Publication shows 165,000

Batman had fallen to 154,000. Wonder Woman at 150,000. Flash 168,000. Justice League 162,000.

Kamandi outsold BATMAN and WONDER WOMAN for DC in 1975. (And matched sales with Flash and Justice League)

These are the publishers own numbers.

 

Superman was at 293,000 and STILL ever so slightly outselling Spider-man (273,000)

 

Thor? 197,000.

Kirby had taken Kamandi and made it work for three years, putting up numbers comparable to his OWN creation at Marvel.

He was getting ready to turn 60 years old. 

Still writing and drawing it all himself.

 

The ones who failed were DC. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

The Biggest difference between the early 1970's and the early 1990's in this hobby is affidavit fraud. 

Both featured veteran artists branching out as well as a crop of new young talent that EXCITED the hobby.

But in the early 70's, somehow publisher sales went DOWN on those books... while in the 90's they reached sales heights unseen since the Golden Age.

Both featured a feeding frenzy of the HOT material at shows immediately...

The reason publisher sales got so BIG in the 90's was because of the Direct Market (the newsstand becoming a secondary afterthought), enabling publishers to make the money off of the speculation with no fear of returns vs...

The 1970's where affidavit fraud stole the success of the HOT books...

 

Asking out loud...

What other era of mainstream comics, featured its hottest books - being sales DUDS when they came out - soon cancelled or almost cancelled - but then IMMEDIATELY successful on the back issue market (to even NOW)?

[shadroch]

Kirby was so successful at DC that they didn't renew his contract.  I think that fact speaks for itself. 

As someone buying comics in 1974, Kirby's Fourth World was not a massive back issue seller, nor was Adams Green Lantern.  DC back issues were less in demand than Marvel, and DC horror seemed to sell better than DC hero's line. As I recall, the Swamp Thing was the DC title people were looking for.  Batman was a low-selling book until Miller reinvented the character a decade later.

Comic books, with their 15-20 cent covers, were having difficulty being distributed because they were competing for space against magazines costing two or three times as much.  Do you display a dollar magazine or a twenty-cent comic as a store owner?  One item makes you 35 cents when you sell, and the other makes you five cents.  Many places that sold comics were dropping them as not cost-effective. It's why the publishers tried fifty and sixty-cent cover prices, but fans were price-resistant.  DC tried to push a dollar line of books, but it failed. 

[shadroch]

SVs Uncle bought returns from one distributor but got in trouble when he attempted it with others. How can that be if the practice was so widespread?  

 

BTW- Phil Sueling started selling books wholesale because he lost his job as a teacher.  It was more of an accident than anything else.  He was teaching and doing a monthly show when he got suspended and needed an income. It wasn't a grand design to change the hobby. He urgently needed to put food on the table and make his car note. 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by shadroch

[Prince Namor]

1974 isn't 1971

All of the favorites were sales duds, and either cancelled or threatened to be cancelled. Amazing. 

The only time I know of in the history of comics that the most popular titles, by the most popular creators, with the longest lasting appeal...

Didn't sell when they were released.

Why?

Because they WERE. Through affidavit fraud. 

[Prince Namor]

"Adams was the absolute #1 speculated upon comic book creator then 1969-1971. For DC Adams did GL/GA, also Spectre, Deadman in StrAdv, plus etc. His Marvel X-Men. All Adams titles back then were being bought up in quantity. All his titles to DC and Marvel were not seen as good sellers for them, Yet, Adams was #1 creator seller inside the back issue gigs of most comic book dealers." - Bob Beerbohm (Who was THERE)

"... the Cult of Lee will not countenance any version of events that doesn't recognize the fact that Kirby broke up the greatest partnership mankind has ever seen and paid the price for it with failure. ..." - Michael Hill

(ie. they MUST believe its that way.)

Again...

The only time I know of in the history of comics that the most popular titles, by the most popular creators, with the longest lasting appeal...

Didn't sell when they were released.

While Fandom was EXPLODING. 

Makes no sense.... unless you factor in affidavit fraud. 

[Steven Valdez]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:28 AM, Prince Namor said:

"Adams was the absolute #1 speculated upon comic book creator then 1969-1971. For DC Adams did GL/GA, also Spectre, Deadman in StrAdv, plus etc. His Marvel X-Men. All Adams titles back then were being bought up in quantity. All his titles to DC and Marvel were not seen as good sellers for them, Yet, Adams was #1 creator seller inside the back issue gigs of most comic book dealers." - Bob Beerbohm (Who was THERE)

"... the Cult of Lee will not countenance any version of events that doesn't recognize the fact that Kirby broke up the greatest partnership mankind has ever seen and paid the price for it with failure. ..." - Michael Hill

(ie. they MUST believe its that way.)

Again...

The only time I know of in the history of comics that the most popular titles, by the most popular creators, with the longest lasting appeal...

Didn't sell when they were released.

While Fandom was EXPLODING. 

Makes no sense.... unless you factor in affidavit fraud. 

It's incredible to me that people are STILL denying that affidavit return fraud was rampant in the '60s and '70s. Not just rampant, it was the norm. It's almost as if the denialists were active participants in it themselves, and don't want it coming out.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Steven Valdez