COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[VintageComics]

@Lazyboy

But wait, there's more! 

You say origin retellings are BORING. 

Well, we all know Spider-man's origin was retold in ASM #94, but if this was boring why did the OSPG break out the Marvel Tales reprint of ASM #94 with a notation of origin retold AND a different price in 1983?

[VintageComics]

Sorry, gang. You can't rewrite history.

I know a lot of people question the things I say but I can back up everything. Every. Single. Thing. I say. 

Origin stories whether reprinted or not were ALWAYS considered highly collectible until the digital age when covers took over. 

And the digital age has caused a moving away from CONTENT TO COVERS (merit over appearance) in every field imaginable, from comics, to academics, to...well...literally everything. 

It is a THE #1 root problem in society, and that's a fact that nobody can deny. 

All this to say that readers are not the driver in comics anymore. 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 4:54 AM, Lazyboy said:

 Only a very small percentage; the top sellers. The majority were definitely not.

There were also a bunch of comics printed over a million in the 1990s. So what?

They were already there.

No.

Why are you talking about subscription numbers? Subscriptions have never been a big thing for comic books.

His numbers are wrong in almost all of those. 

And: 

The better question might be to ask which subscription numbers are staying higher than their peers within each era?

LOL

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:48 PM, Lazyboy said:

The actual problem with origin issues, as I've mentioned before, is that origin stories of older characters have been endlessly reprinted, retold, and altered over the years. The first origin issue is nothing special anymore.

I should have known the best response some people would have for this would be to bring up things from decades ago.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:20 AM, VintageComics said:

Sorry, gang. You can't rewrite history.

I know a lot of people question the things I say but I can back up everything. Every. Single. Thing. I say. 

On 12/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, VintageComics said:

We've discussed various aspects of why comic book stores are failing. 

I stand by the points that I've made that big corporate involvement through various avenues is adulterating the art form.

LOL

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:54 PM, Lazyboy said:

 Only a very small percentage; the top sellers. The majority were definitely not.

There were also a bunch of comics printed over a million in the 1990s. So what?

They were already there.

No.

Why are you talking about subscription numbers? Subscriptions have never been a big thing for comic books.

I may not be using the exact, correct numbers to represent each genre because I'm guessing off the top of my head, but the gist of my post still stands.

The numbers generally dropped from millions or 100,000's of each coming to 10,000's or even 1000's of each comic across 80 years (with some outliers, which don't count).

I made a mistake using the word 'subscription'. I was caught up in typing the reply. I meant publication numbers.

Does that make my point more clear to you?

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:23 AM, Lazyboy said:

I should have known the best response some people would have for this would be to bring up things from decades ago.

When was Amazing Spider-man #94 a big breakout seller? 

1970?

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:26 AM, VintageComics said:

I may not be using the exact, correct numbers to represent each genre because I'm guessing off the top of my head, but the gist of my post still stands.

The numbers generally dropped from millions or 100,000's of each coming to 10,000's or even 1000's of each comic across 80 years (with some outliers, which don't count).

I made a mistake using the word 'subscription'. I was caught up in typing the reply. I meant publication numbers.

Does that make my point more clear to you?

The point it makes clear is that numbers were declining long before "big corporate involvement through various avenues" (Roy's quote)

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:20 AM, VintageComics said:

It is a THE #1 root problem in society, and that's a fact that nobody can deny. 

I deny that CONTENT TO COVERS is the #1 root problem in society today. LOL. Duh.

Way to write something unproveable in a post were you say you can prove every. single. thing. you. say.

[Lazyboy]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:20 PM, VintageComics said:

Sorry, gang. You can't rewrite history.

So you're going to stop trying?

[Prince Namor]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, VintageComics said:

We've discussed various aspects of why comic book stores are failing. 

I stand by the points that I've made that big corporate involvement through various avenues is adulterating the art form.

I also stand by the point that Manga (or Japanese comics), which is overtaking American comics are probably a model most should consider. 

I just had a very interesting conversation with a person (pretty much a stranger, I've only met them twice now including today) about Manga and why the read it. 

They basically told me that Manga is like The Simpsons, in that they have a huge amount of social commentary and open discourse that is permitted because the characters are not 'human' in the discussions, making the topics thought provoking without making them offensive. 

They told this sort of direct view into social culture is what makes Manga so appealing to them, and I can understand why. 

Outside of Battle of the Planets in the 80's and Frank Miller's obvious Japanese influence in comics, my experience to Japanese comic books is pretty limited. 

Does this ring true to any of the manga readers here?

How anyone can read the above statement and not make a connection that Roy is saying that corporate involvement is altering the content of American comic books. Because it's EXACTLY what he says: big corporate involvement through various avenues is adulterating the art form.

IMMEDIATELY following the sentence where he says: why comic book stores are failing. 

How can he DENY that he said this???

He THEN offers a solution: Manga (or Japanese comics), which is overtaking American comics are probably a model most should consider. 

He THEN opines (based on a sample size of ONE, an imaginary conversation he has no proof of) WHY: They basically told me that Manga is like The Simpsons, in that they have a huge amount of social commentary and open discourse that is permitted because the characters are not 'human' in the discussions, making the topics thought provoking without making them offensive. 

Which in and of itself is completely WRONG. 

Yet Roy denies all of this, how?

[Prince Namor]

And when asked to clarify, he immediately goes on the defensive, and doesn't.

Yet, it's everyone else's fault.

Insanity. 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:30 PM, VintageComics said:

My mom always had great color cameras growing up and my own personal, childhood horror story is her loaning me a prized Nikon camera around 1980 or 1981 that I lost in Niagara Falls, Canada on a school trip. She still reminds me of it over 40 years later. 

But yeah, I still have the check in my possession. I never cashed it. 

The fact that someone would question a lifelong collector of 5 decades, like myself, about doing mail order pre internet days is about as ridiculous as it gets on these forums. We all did it. 

You are once again making everything about you. 

I am questioning your take on what average kid (11-13) was writing checks pre-internet, not just "Roy Delk".  That is why I said, I did not have a checkbook and and asked if you did.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:23 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 12/2/2023 at 3:48 PM, Lazyboy said:

The actual problem with origin issues, as I've mentioned before, is that origin stories of older characters have been endlessly reprinted, retold, and altered over the years. The first origin issue is nothing special anymore.

I should have known the best response some people would have for this would be to bring up things from decades ago.

I am very glad you mentioned that. 

I was waiting for you to say that so that I could show you in detail how the hobby has changed over the years. 

So we've covered the 70's and 80's.

I posted those examples to show you that origin issues were originally considered prime material because comics used to be based on reading the content and not the covers. The only way to show you this is to show you how the hobby evolved through the documented Bible we have, the OSPG.

Now I'm going to show you this from 2006. This book was probably the first OSPG where I started to notice huge jumps in key prices that I believe were directly related to the CGC market. If you all remember, the big SA keys took HUGE jumps around this time:

 

Now look at the same issues I documented from the 1970's and 80's

Superman. 

You'll notice that there are even MORE origin stories broken out with Superman #3 noting origin reprint from Action #5.

But you'll also notice that Superman #53 is now broken out as the 3rd telling of the Superman origin! 

So, in 2006, 68 years after the 1st origin of Superman, and 23 years after the last OSPG I posted (which you mocked for being "decades old", the OSPG is STILL breaking out Origin stories and in greater detail than ever before. 

I'm doing this to show you that Origin stories were always considered important historically, no matter how people feel about them today. 

 

Detective Comics #31 vs #33

 

Strange Tales:

 

And finally, Marvel Tales (issue #75 is the origin reprint of the origin retelling in ASM #94):

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:33 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 12/2/2023 at 5:20 PM, VintageComics said:

Sorry, gang. You can't rewrite history.

So you're going to stop trying?

I'm trying to show you a pattern over time. I just posted examples from the 1970's, the 1980's and the 2000's.

What criteria do you think is sufficient? Just using data from the last 10 years? 

Are you saying you DISAGREE that people read and care less about comic content now than they used to?

Edited December 2, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

To everyone else, I'm sorry about all of this.

I'm trying to have a genuine discussion here but I'm going to step away for a bit to turn down the heat because I'm sure this is tiring for everyone. 

[Prince Namor]

Note: At this point the year 2000 is now also 'decades' ago.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:56 AM, VintageComics said:

To everyone else, I'm sorry about all of this.

I'm trying to have a genuine discussion here but I'm going to step away for a bit to turn down the heat because I'm sure this is tiring for everyone. 

Yeah, when you post something and then deny it and then change the subject to all about YOU it gets pretty tiring. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:20 AM, VintageComics said:

I know a lot of people question the things I say but I can back up everything. Every. Single. Thing. I say. 

 

And the digital age has caused a moving away from CONTENT TO COVERS (merit over appearance) in every field imaginable, from comics, to academics, to...well...literally everything. 

It is a THE #1 root problem in society, and that's a fact that nobody can deny. 

Keeping this right here. LOL.

[VintageComics]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:48 PM, Lightning55 said:

After giving the possible scenarios some thought, I believed it was most likely that you still had the original check, since digital cameras were not available to consumers until about 1988.

But then I wondered, who doesn't cash a check? I know it's not a high dollar amount, but no one passes up free money. You must have had a premonition that you would need it in the future for this forum moment. 

I believe @Buzzetta thought you were both around the same age. Apparently not.

Why would I need a digital camera to photograph something from 1977?

Any camera will work. 

I didn't cash the check because somehow, in a family of 8, it was forgotten about. 

And as far as premonitions go, I believe in them and live them. After this conversation matured into what it is now, I was thinking exactly that: That it is amazing that 36 years later, saving this check BY ACCIDENT worked out very well for me. 

But then I truly believe that nothing in life is co-incidence and that everything truly and genuinely happens for a reason. I know a lot of people just say that, but believe it and live that way every day.