ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:42 AM, Nick Furious said:

Is it typical for a Cert starting with 413 to be graded after a Cert starting with 415?  I'm not up to speed on the numbering system.    

The cert conventions used by CGC are above my pay grade, although I feel like we might be able to learn a thing or two by examining patterns. Good call, as I just noticed that myself. 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:47 PM, sledgehammer said:

Tracking number shows it was sent from a USPS in Kew Gardens NY

I think it's pretty certain I've nailed down the name as Bree Riva . Might be the same one we asked @BigLeagueCHEW to take down because it seemed premature. Lived in Arizona. Lives in NY, that city.

36 years old.

 

Kew Gardens is right next to Forest Hills.

[sledgehammer]

Nice job on the ASM 194. So many MJ instances now.

Getting harder to believe this guy didn't have a connection to CGC.

Maybe a friend of his from NJ?

This really sucks.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:49 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Kew Gardens is right next to Forest Hills.

Yep. USSEARCH only lists 3 known addresses for the guy, and they match  AZ, NJ and NY locations for sellers connected to this.

[THE_BEYONDER]

And I’m finally caught up….again.

Edited December 24, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[skybolt]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:47 AM, comicwiz said:

The cert conventions used by CGC are above my pay grade, although I feel like we might be able to learn a thing or two by examining patterns. Good call, as I just noticed that myself. 

Looking at my submissions over the past year, the cert #'s appear to be going up by date. I do know that different services have different cert #'s.

[Buzzetta]

I wonder how many deals were scored on eBay and if the buyers tried flipping them through the comics dedicated auction houses.  Have any of these books shown up at Heritage,  Comic Connect, ComicLink or Hakes?

[namisgr]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:57 AM, sledgehammer said:

Nice job on the ASM 194. So many MJ instances now.

This one has me confused.  If in fact the 9.2 was graded AFTER the 9.8, how can it have been used in a scam to generate the 9.8 label?

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:13 AM, Buzzetta said:

I wonder how many deals were scored on eBay and if the buyers tried flipping them through the comics dedicated auction houses.  Have any of these books shown up at Heritage,  Comic Connect, ComicLink or Hakes?

Based on the Comics being ones continually targeted by Speculators and Flippers it's highly logical that they have. Probably impossible that it has not already occurred. Just a matter of digging up the bones.

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:25 AM, namisgr said:

This one has me confused.  If in fact the 9.2 was graded AFTER the 9.8, how can it have been used in a scam to generate the 9.8 label?

With each new discovery, it sure is starting to look like tampering. 

[skybolt]

Perhaps the seller was confident he would find a lower graded Mark Jeweler copy of the ASM #194 and decided to create his submission months beforehand. That's all I could think of outside of any inside shenanigans. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:28 AM, comicwiz said:

On 12/24/2023 at 9:25 AM, namisgr said:

This one has me confused.  If in fact the 9.2 was graded AFTER the 9.8, how can it have been used in a scam to generate the 9.8 label?

With each new discovery, it sure is starting to look like tampering. 

Actual 9.2 MJ, graded last january, was put in to a 9.8 holder, and reholdered.

[Nick Furious]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:25 AM, namisgr said:

This one has me confused.  If in fact the 9.2 was graded AFTER the 9.8, how can it have been used in a scam to generate the 9.8 label?

I'm hung up on the timing as well, for both the grading dates and selling dates.  It was graded after, but has a lower cert number.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Nick Furious

[MAR1979]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:25 AM, namisgr said:

This one has me confused.  If in fact the 9.2 was graded AFTER the 9.8, how can it have been used in a scam to generate the 9.8 label?

Cert numbers are in effect generated the day the submissions Electronic Form is filled out. I for one have done it as much as 2 months prior to a con in my prep for dropping books off.  Example in 2021; I filled out the on-line forms in August but did not drop them off until Oct at NYCC. Those books had much lower cert numbers than the ones on forms I filled out early in Oct 2021.

Not a stretch to think the the perp was merely lining all ducks in a row and filling out the paperwork in advance -- especially given the scam was a proven & predictable thing by then. Was it smart? Probably not, but their ilk becomes more and more brazen when they feel assured they will get away with their acts.  Simply criminal and human nature.

Edited December 24, 2023 by MAR1979

[skybolt]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:28 AM, comicwiz said:

With each new discovery, it sure is starting to look like tampering. 

Honestly, I think this is the likely main reason CGC has not come out with a statement. They're trying to see how much this board can uncover first.

My gut tells me their response will note negligence on the part of their re-holdering department. They'll note that staff should've checked the books more carefully if the slab came in with major damages that impacted the corners. The staff is going through proper training now to ensure this does not occur in the future. Any customers with books in question should send back to CGC for further evaluation. They will also ensure these were isolated cases and not rampant. Any issues with cert #'s or dates graded will be downplayed as system errors.

Edited December 24, 2023 by skybolt

[sledgehammer]

The 9.8 -11/9/22, was graded before the 9.2 1/24/23 , but the MJ insert note was added when it was reholdered.

Some of this could also be data entry issues by somebody at CGC

Edited December 24, 2023 by sledgehammer

[sledgehammer]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:45 AM, agamoto said:

4152956002 Dec 16 2022 $4995 - We have a hit here... This book was "sold" by the seller Dec 16 2022 w/o the Mark Jewelers designation on the label. This book has a new holder with the MJ indicator. 100% a different comic.

This sale was of the cert when it was a 9.8, and not an MJ and I think you're saying that.

This sale though as a newstand is on gpa on 12/15/22, after the grade date.

GPA does not call out one 9.8 asm 194 MJ sale, ever.

Edited December 24, 2023 by sledgehammer
newstand

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:30 AM, sledgehammer said:

Actual 9.2 MJ, graded last january, was put in to a 9.8 holder, and reholdered.

Reholder kept same cert date.

[comicwiz]

My only follow-up to the last point is I think we need to keep an open mind that this seller may be using a full menu of options to carry out the deception, so while a "reholdering scam" is what it's being currently called, I feel like we are going to find situations where we can't exclude the possibility of tampering. my2cents

[joeypost]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:42 AM, Nick Furious said:

Is it typical for a Cert starting with 413 to be graded after a Cert starting with 415?  I'm not up to speed on the numbering system.    

It all depends on when they get entered into the CGC queue. If I send in my invoice starting with 415 two weeks before someone sends their paperwork in starting with 413...mine would go out the door first if CGC stays true to their FIFO system. Then again, that could all go out the window if one invoice is fast-tracked or sent in at a faster tier of service.